Devotee: [introducing recording] Discussion between His Divine Grace and Apa Pante, A-P-A-P-A-N-T-E, High Commissioner for United Kingdom, 4th August, 1971, noon. The recording is not very clear, being copied from a cassette tape recorder. Please make it out as best as possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: …In India by nature they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means they have been...
Apa Pante: [laughs]
Prabhupāda: …trained to forget Kṛṣṇa. Like that.
Apa Pante: [indistinct] So it is artificial?
Prabhupāda: That is...
Apa Pante: Hmm. That's normal [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: I think you understand some Bengali. There is a verse in Caitanya-caritamṛta,
nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti ‘sādhya’ kabhu naya
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
[Cc. Madhya 22.107]
Apa Pante: Yes. [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: It is not an artificial imposition. So everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Apa Pante: Sva-bhāva.
Apa Pante: Sva-bhāva. [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12]. Sva-bhāva. [indistinct]
Apa Pante: Śivo 'ham, śivo 'ham.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But the process recommended in this age by Caitanya Mahāprabhu:
harer nāma harer nāma
harer nāmaiva kevalam
[Cc. Ādi 17.21]
So harer nāma—Hare means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa—that simply chanting harer nāma one can be entirely Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And actually it is happening. These European and American boys and girls, especially the young men, four years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, but now they are so serious...
Apa Pante: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: ...about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have got many Muhammadans, Parsis, yogīs[?], everywhere. [indistinct] But nitya siddha kṛṣṇa. Nitya siddha. That means eternally.
Apa Pante: Yes, eternally. That is very nice [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] So far my belief is that… Why my belief? It is the belief of the authority, Lord Caitanya. He said that this movement will spread, and people will be happy. So it is a great movement. Every thoughtful man, scientist, philosopher and follower should try to understand. It is authorized, based on Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam [SB 12.13.18].
Apa Pante: Umalaṁ?
Prabhupāda: Amalaṁ [indistinct]. Amalaṁ. Amalaṁ means karma jñāna-miśra. Amalaṁ means "without any..."
Apa Pante: Impurities.
So I have already established fifty branches. Now in Calcutta, Bombay also we have got. Now recently we have got a big program to start an institution, kṛṣṇa-bhakti, on the first five forms Lord Caitanya. So I have already purchased land, but we have to purchase more land. Now…
Apa Pante: Is it in Bengal?
Prabhupāda: It is in Bengal. So my only [indistinct] is that Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi, I was hoping if she can authorize something. We don't want any monetary help from anyone; simply by supporting. So kindly help me, for that purpose[?].
Apa Pante: [laughs] How right you are.
Prabhupāda: Not right, but you have to do what is your heart. I want to make this very, very [indistinct]. I do not know whether it is [indistinct]. I want to [indistinct]. But that is my ambition. So last time when I saw, you promised that you would help me with this kind of principle.
Apa Pante: [laughs] [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: I don’t want anything. Another thing, I see you have got my first book, Kṛṣṇa.
Apa Pante: Yes. Is this the second part?
Apa Pante: Oh! Beautifully done.
Prabhupāda: No, all our literature is coming out very successful.
Apa Pante: This is all your literature?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is [indistinct].
Apa Pante: I see. [laughs] Indeed I'm not, [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] you order and bless the program... We are blessed if you order the program. Back to Godhead.
Apa Pante: [laughs] It would be much better to have the God order.
Prabhupāda: If you hold up Back to Godhead… People are trying to forget God. Without God. Kingdom of God without God.
Apa Pante: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: So I want to have in India a nice center so that foreign students will go. That…, what you call it? They were regular students, college for students from America who travel [indistinct]. So I want to keep at least one hundred students here. For that purpose also we want some facilities. Because as soon as foreigners go, especially these boys... I am very much anxious to help them [indistinct]. I do not know why.
Maybe that if we grow in number in India they might be thinking that "They are also something [indistinct]." [indistinct] worldwide movement. This culture is being accepted, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this room you see they look forward to India’s spiritual culture. And this is real. Before that, whatever spiritual culture there was in the foreign countries [indistinct], and they have now taken in their own way, that [indistinct] following: evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. [indistinct]
Apa Pante: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Yes. [indistinct] That we are giving fact, [indistinct] so somehow or other. Last time I suggested [indistinct].
Apa Pante: When will you go to India?
Prabhupāda: After I've been to festival. I want the festival, then go.
Apa Pante: [indistinct] in India …
Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. [indistinct]
Apa Pante: [indistinct] when Mrs. Gandhi went to Bengal [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: That you will [indistinct] know better. According to our program, [indistinct] not that I shall…
Apa Pante: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: No. We have purchased the land, now we must [indistinct] lay down the foundations, and then our [indistinct]. So I should not completely depend on her [indistinct], but as soon as I know that it will be reserved [indistinct], then I will go there and arrange.
Apa Pante: [indistinct] the organization write a letter…
Prabhupāda: No, that will not be… If you kindly say yes to this proposal, then I shall arrange.
Apa Pante: Yes, but [indistinct], this is not in my sphere of duties.
Prabhupāda: I don't ask you officially to execute it; I simply request you that you also request on behalf of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. She knows us. She knows us. But if you request her, then she'll... She knows about our activities. Some of our boys in Delhi met her when she [indistinct]. And she promised also that when I go to Bengal... Now I want to fix up, and then I go and arrange [indistinct].
Apa Pante: I would like to. I don't know when I may get an answer, but after I get the answer I will let you know. Are you happy?
Prabhupāda: Then I shall wait here.
Apa Pante: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The time being. Of course, as far as this movement is concerned [indistinct]. We have got the highest [indistinct]. Kṛṣṇa has provided. I have no money to pay them [indistinct]. For printing these two books here, you know that boy, George Harrison, he paid me nineteen thousand dollars. So somehow or other I am going on. We are always in want, but our wants are being satisfied somehow or other by Kṛṣṇa. To keep oneself in want is one of the [indistinct].
Apa Pante: Samudvigna
Prabhupāda: Ah, samudvigna, yes. So that Kṛṣṇa will help. The reciprocation from God. [indistinct] This is one of the items of śaraṇāgati. [indistinct] So it will be nice place. After all, I should have been very much glad by the government. This is the culture, Indian culture, I am trying to..., and people are accepting. The Indian, all Indian the culture of the government, but unfortunately I am not getting any help. That doesn’t matter, but I am requesting you for this important [indistinct] of this [indistinct] Indira Gandhi.
Of course, Jawaharlal Nehru, when I was in Allahabad and he was my customer, I was doing business when he was Municipality chairman. He was my customer. [indistinct] Indira Gandhi perhaps a small child. So Jawaharlal Nehru was [indistinct]. I gave a presentation at that time of my ointment, so he was very much pleased that [indistinct]. He, in 1928, I was [indistinct]. He was meeting with Congress continuously; I'd go to see. Motilal Nehru was president. [indistinct]
So in Calcutta I went to Allahabad; Calcutta from Allahabad [indistinct] committee. I paid only one rupee. [laughs] I told them that [indistinct] I told that. One rupee, you have paid twenty-five rupees, that's [indistinct] because they were our men, therefore our people [indistinct] it was the custom of the Congress [indistinct]. So for this purpose I request you to help us. It is not very difficult, [indistinct] but this is my immediate need [indistinct].
Apa Pante: It is in the hands of God. I will do the writing, but the end result is not in my hands.
Prabhupāda: But I think it is in your hands. [indistinct] Everything is in God’s hands, but [indistinct] part and parcel of God. Adhikāri-devatā. Demigod[?]. Adhikāri-devatā. So here also one of the adhikāri-devatās. Then another thing, that is also [indistinct]. The missionaries in some other country, when the Christian missionaries go, they stay there. They have got their offices for propaganda. Why our missionaries are prohibited? Whenever they go, they are simply reminded, "Now you have to [indistinct]."
What to do? I want to present you 100 foreigners, but if [indistinct] opportunity. And when they [indistinct] Calcutta, Bombay, Allahabad. In Allahabad Kumbha-melā our camp was the most glorious camp. Many, many big, big officers came. [indistinct] Allahabad. [indistinct] They have practically become [indistinct]. "How the foreigners are so engaged in devotional service?" Actually that is a fact, because they are not professionals; they are actually taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Apa Pante: What is the [indistinct]?
Prabhupāda: That visa... [indistinct].
Devotee: [indistinct] went from here, and they got a visa for three months and then they extended it six months. So after six months the visa was expired, then I approached the Home Minister at the time, and he said, "Well you must go back." So on a special condition they are extending the stay, and we requested that the people who have come from America, from France, from Europe, they applied the missionary visa from there end and they get it from there. Not that you can extend the missionary visa. We wanted a missionary visa granted from here.
Apa Pante: You can do that [indistinct]. You can do that. Initially [indistinct] when you are returning there?
Devotee: Some are going sometime this month, but it is not all the time. But two people go this month, two people will go next month...
Devotee (2): [indistinct] British passport-holders they have [indistinct]. What is your opinion of that?
Prabhupāda: If the application is from here, [indistinct] never mind wherefrom they are coming...
Apa Pante: [indistinct] somebody here [indistinct]. [break]
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave his opinion like this: Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya [Caitanya-manjusa]. Arādhyo.
man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
So this is our philosophy. What to do? [indistinct] so impartially [indistinct] the religion of Kṛṣṇa is vraja-bhakti [indistinct] Vṛndāvana [indistinct]. Therefore especially we Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they go to Vṛndāvana. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Therefore in particularly from Europe now [indistinct] to Vṛndāvana. You will find that seventy[?]-five percent of the population is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā [Caitanya-manjusa]. There is no higher method of worshiping than what was [indistinct] by the gopīs, vraja-vadhū [indistinct] śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam [SB 12.13.18].
There must be some advice in the scripture to follow these principles. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam. Amalaṁ means without any material contamination. And similarly, devotional service mixed with material purpose, or jñāna… Jñāna means to merge into the existence of the [indistinct]. Jñāna, that is the target of jñāna. And karma, karma means to take benediction from God. [indistinct] Everyone is trying to be very, very big man, in general, in this material world. That is karma.
Real bhakti…, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmi vibhājitam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Brs 1.1.11]. Simply serve Kṛṣṇa favorably [indistinct], just like Arjuna did. This is the [indistinct] nephews, grandfather. He did not like, but when he saw that Kṛṣṇa wants it, then ānukūla, favorably. If Kṛṣṇa wants it, then he wants it. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam.
So our this propaganda is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam: what Kṛṣṇa wants, we are trying to make propaganda [indistinct]. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Kṛṣṇa says,
man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
[claps his hands]
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
[indistinct] If you simply concentrate on Kṛṣṇa... Of course, in our Hindu system there are so many other things recommended, but in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ: a clear fact, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. [indistinct] …in the Bhāgavat it is said by Devahūti, who instructs Kapiladeva, bhāgavata bāṇam. Bhāgavata bāṇam. Bāṇam means arrow, the arrow which has got established. So if this process is controlled by Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān..., bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]...
Other methods, they may lead to the Absolute, but with vague ideas. Absolute means ānukūl, in three phases: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]: the Absolute Truth is understood in three ways. You can see that the jñānīs, Parabrahman. Not Parabrahman, Brahman, Brahman effulgence. But for the yogīs, Paramātmā, antardhyāna, and the bhaktas, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
So this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is bhagavat-bhakti. It started with directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and if this arrow goes direct to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then it goes through the impersonal Brahman effulgence and localized aspects of Paramātmā. That is automatically understood.
So this movement is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Bhakti-yoga, first class. And similarly in the Nārada-pañcarātra it says,
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]
Hṛṣī: by the senses. If all the senses are always engaged for the sense gratification of the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa, Kṛṣṇa, the master of the senses, then things are engaged in pure devotion.
Apa Pante: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Actually, our senses, they are not our senses. [indistinct] So these hands and legs are belonging to Kṛṣṇa. [indistinct] So when these senses are engaged in the service of the proprietor of the senses, that is called bhakti. You cannot engage… Just like your senses are part and parcel of the human body if they are engaged in the service of the body. You cannot apply your senses for any other... That makes you real, a part and parcel.
Apa Pante: [indistinct] [break]
Prabhupāda: At the present moment, in the materialistic way of life, people are conscious to use their senses for a particular designation: "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So here he has accepted a particular type of designation. He is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Indian, nor American. He is brahmacārī, real brahmacārī: ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahman—part and parcel of the Parabrahman. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke [Bg. 15.7]. That realization is required. Unless that realization is there, then, I mean, then your human life is [indistinct]. Athāto brahma jijñāsā [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.1]: one should be inquisitive to know what is the science of Brahman. That is the real function of human life.
So, so long we are not engaged in our real function, then it is śrama eva hi kevalam.
dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
notpādayed ratiṁ yadi
śrama eva hi kevalam
Everyone has got some particular duty. He may perform very nicely his particular designated duty, but if he does not have any Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then śrama eva hi kevalam.
So people should, in the midst of his variegated duties… In another place it is said,
ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
Hari-toṣaṇam. That was the injunction for everyone. The brāhmaṇa, he is engaged in his own duties, but the aim is how to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. The kṣatriya is engaged in his duties [indistinct], but aim is how to satisfy the Surpreme Person. Therefore they were called…, the kṣatriyas were called rājarṣis. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Kṛṣṇa does not say imaṁ brāhmaṇa viduḥ. The brāhmaṇas are the [indistinct]. The rājarṣis [indistinct] public figure free from the political head, and they were rṣis. All the kings were rṣis, rājarṣi.
So Kṛṣṇa says that,
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
Not ordinary man. Because he is the king, he is the right person. If you understand this nicely, [indistinct], this is how we follow.
yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
tat tad evetaro janaḥ
So this is the ideal of our Vedic culture. Now the time has come that people are discussing [indistinct] Vedic literature, based on Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [indistinct] for India's glory. So actually let us cooperate. There is no personal [indistinct]. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. One of the Gosvāmīs, he has been described as lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau:
lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau
Apa Pante: [indistinct, preparing to leave?]
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you. [indistinct] You are a very nice ambassador. Very nice. Such an honor. [indistinct]
Apa Pante: [indistinct]
Devotee: [to tape] Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. [end]