Prabhupāda: Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, amongst educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda-class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals—Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and... That is their one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class.

Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating: "Eat any... All Brahman, all Nārāyaṇa. You are Nārāyaṇa. Goat is Nārāyaṇa. So Nārāyaṇa is going in the belly of Nārāyaṇa. What is the wrong? One Nārāyaṇa is going, being absorbed by another Nārāyaṇa." But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger Nārāyaṇa.

Haṁsadūta: They actually say that?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: "One Nārāyaṇa is being absorbed by another."

Prabhupāda: One respectable pleader in Allahabad, I said, "Why you are eating this?" We also find that he's a very religious man. So I inquired. He was just like our father; still, I inquired. He said, "No, what is the wrong there? Nārāyaṇa, Brahman. So one Brahman is going into the belly of another Brahman. Brahman being absorbed, brahmeti."

So they have got so dangerous theory. But still, we shall not hesitate to kick on their face. But because they are making a propaganda, it should be peaceful. [chuckles] But I become very much agitated with this nonsense, because I know they are creating havoc.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on. [door closes]

So many rascals.

[devotees offer obeisances] [japa]

Haṁsadūta: So yesterday we went to that place, that svāmī with the silver glasses and black beard that always gives his respect to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Well, he has become head svāmī of this temple, very big, very nice place.

Prabhupāda: Very nice place?

Haṁsadūta: Yes. Hodgepodge, but very...

Prabhupāda: There.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. Yes. A big marble statue of Buddha, very costly, and tiles from Japan.

Prabhupāda: Tiles?

Devotee (1): This temple is made by one American.

Haṁsadūta: By an American?

Devotee (1): I was told it was built by one American. I don't know who.

Prabhupāda: So why not give us that place?

Haṁsadūta: [laughs] I don't think he's prepared to do that.

Prabhupāda: They have residential quarter? They have made some residential quarter?

Haṁsadūta: I didn't see any residential quarter. Mostly temple. They're just building.

Prabhupāda: Very big temple?

Haṁsadūta: It's one big temple with different rooms. Very large, very nice.

Prabhupāda: Better than this Gītā Bhavan?

Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think it's better than Gītā Bhavan. Not better.

Prabhupāda: It was simply attempted, not finished.

Haṁsadūta: It's not finished. [break]

Prabhupāda: Aiye. [japa] [guest enters] Oh, thank you. Why not spread those blankets? Then you can... They are being used?

Haṁsadūta: There is a blanket in your room.

Prabhupāda: Blanket or mattress?

Haṁsadūta: They have blankets in their rooms. They left them in their rooms.

Prabhupāda: Bring mattress and spread.

[to guest:] [Hindi] Sit down. This is comfortable.

Guest (1): In God's temple, what human wants? And what type of life he wants so that he can be happy?

Prabhupāda: [to devotee:] Not upon that. You spread separately. You have no bed sheet? Bed sheet you can spread. The human demand is happiness.

Guest (1): Happiness, yes. But happiness means increase in which is already happy. It is...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, the thing is, what is that happiness? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya-grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]: "The absolute happiness, or the perpetual happiness, or the greatest happiness is that which is enjoyed by supernatural senses."

Guest (1): Would that be by all the senses—mind, intelligence...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything, but in their supernatural, not in this condition.

Guest (1): Not in this...?

Prabhupāda: Condition.

Guest (1): You see, otherwise it is said that when a person is happy with the self, happy with others...

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Try to understand. He has got his senses. These senses are now covered with the coating of material conception of life. Therefore this sense pleasure is not complete or perfect. Just like everyone has got... Now, you have got your tongue. Now the tongue, when it is coated, you cannot taste the things.

Guest (1): Yes. I understand.

Prabhupāda: So this coating is māyā.

Guest (1): What I was missing me was in this degree, that just like here, people, why we are..., because we are using our senses; our mind sees or perceives certain things...

Prabhupāda: These are living, symptoms of living condition.

Guest (1): Living condition. So, but we are not affected by air, which is most required, and most special for our use. Because it is abundant, and it will be given to every person at all the times, in all circumstances, therefore we do not keep it under lock and key. Western countries, though they have...

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of Western-Eastern.

Guest (1): No, I was speaking of materialism and spiritualism. I was talking on that point, that though we see, I mean, I don't say have made it, but yet because, you see, there is no what kind of life they want, or in our Eastern countries, because they are...

Prabhupāda: No, no. If you study the whole thing in that way—Western-Eastern... There is no question of Western-Eastern. It is the question of the living entity.

Guest (1): Yes, how to live in such a way where there is no dearth of thing as well as there is no continuing of that need that a man becomes lost? That is the...

Prabhupāda: That is the point.

Guest (1): That is the point. And for that, what kind of spiritual life should it be?

Prabhupāda: That is... That I am going to explain, that... That is one line: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya-grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. This sukham ātyantikaṁ is being searched both by the Western, Eastern, everywhere—even cats, dogs, everyone. But the cats and dogs, animals, they cannot adjust what is that ātyantikaṁ sukham.

But human being can. So human being, there is no question of Eastern and Western. It is a question of degree only. But actually everyone is searching after that perpetual happiness. So it is a problem for everyone, and that problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): By...?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the..., I mean to say, a rough scheme, rough estimation. Now, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve this problem, that is a detailed thing. But this is a fact. It is not the question of Eastern-Western; it is the problem of all living entities.

Guest (1): Yes, living entities. Human, actually we have.

Prabhupāda: Not even human life; even animal life. There are 8,400,000's of different kinds of bodies. So this is a problem for everyone. Now in other species of life than the human form, they cannot solve. They have no power. But a human being can solve.

Guest (1): Yes. They have got understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): What do you mean by that?

Prabhupāda: That is a detailed question, "How it can be?"

Guest (1): No, but are we satisfied with the past...

Prabhupāda: You will be never satisfied without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): What I mean was, was it really or were we at that time...?

Prabhupāda: Which time? What do you mean "that time"?

Guest (1): "That time" means at the time of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Were we completely...

Prabhupāda: At the time of Kṛṣṇa... You are taking simply the portion of the time when Kṛṣṇa was present. You are saying about that. But Kṛṣṇa is present always.

Guest (1): Yes, but if you say that, in that way, then he gets..., because... [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]: "I am the taste in the water." Now, this taste in the water is perpetual. When Kṛṣṇa was physically present or Kṛṣṇa is not physically present, this is a perpetual fact. Is it not? Do you think the taste in the water was different when Kṛṣṇa was present and the taste of water is different now?

Guest (1): No, it cannot be.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, He says, prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ: "I am the shining of the sun and the moon." In this way, if you study what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you'll find that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only solution for that highest perfectional stage of happiness.

Guest (1): We are giving names; therefore we become confused. Because in our God incarnation...

Prabhupāda: No, no. If there is name, why you be confused if your name is Mr. Such-and-such? But you do not know the name. That is the confusion.

Guest (1): Because so many names have been given to these same things...

Prabhupāda: But that is in the śāstra it is said, "There are so many names of God. Out of all of them, 'Kṛṣṇa' is the principal." God's name is given... Just like Kṛṣṇa appeared as the son of Vasudeva; therefore He is called Vāsudeva. Kṛṣṇa played in Vṛndāvana as the son of Nanda Mahārāja and Yaśodā; therefore He is called Yaśodā-nandana. Kṛṣṇa acted as the driver, chariot driver Arjuna. Therefore He is known as Pārtha-sārathī.

So His name... All these names are according to His different activities. So He has got unlimited activities, and therefore He has got unlimited names. So out of all these names, 'Kṛṣṇa' is the supreme or the prime, because 'Kṛṣṇa' means all-attractive. 'Kṛṣṇa' means all-attractive. So God, if God is not all-attractive, He cannot be God. So one God is attractive for me, another God is attractive for him... that supreme God.

Guest (1): We take the name of the God or anything his is to achieve the supreme happiness or...

Prabhupāda: The supreme happiness is [indistinct]. We are talking of God's name. First of all let us understand that God's name, we have different God's name according to God's activities. Madhusūdana. Because He killed the demon Madhu, therefore His name is Madhusūdana. Mādhava. Because He is the husband of goddess of fortune—Ma means goddess of fortune—therefore He is Mādhava.

All the names you analyze. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also the name of God because, He is all-attractive. Now, how you can deny that God is not all-attractive? Is it possible? God is all-attractive. Can you deny this fact?

Guest (1): No, there is no denying, you see, because we only know that all-attractiveness in Śyāmasundaram.

Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundaram... Śyāmasundaram means He is blackish, still, He is so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ [Bs. 5.30]. Kandarpa-koṭi. Cupid is supposed to be the most beautiful, but about Kṛṣṇa it is stated that:

veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ
barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.30]

Veṇuṁ kvaṇantam: He is playing on flute. Aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ: His eyes are just like petals of the lotus flower. Barhāvataṁsam: He has got a peacock feather on His head. Asitāmbuda: and His color is just like black cloud. Sundarāṅgam: but His beauty, total beauty, is kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ. Still, the beauty... As soon as we say blackish, we think that he..., if somebody is blackish, he is not beautiful.

Guest (1): That is also charm in that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But still, He's still charming. Because it is all transcendental, we cannot compare the blackish cloud. It is simply given, an idea, that it is like blackish cloud. But immediately it is said, still, kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.30].

So God has many names, and according to your conception, you can have God's name also. But out of all those names, many thousands and unlimited different types of names, Kṛṣṇa is the principal name, because "Kṛṣṇa" means all-attractive. You cannot say that God is not all-attractive. And if you use that sense, all-attractive, this is the word, Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): What I was... You see, I was trying to...

Prabhupāda: Now, the difficulty is, don't try to invention something about God. That is not good.

Guest (1): No, not invention.

Prabhupāda: No. You have to take the version of the śāstras; then it will be possible. If you invent something, try to speculate on something, it will not be successful.

Guest (1): I'm not, you see. In the middle, I may be speculating or I'm, you see, trying to... Coming to the human aspect itself, now so many want happiness. Happiness is checked up because of...

Prabhupāda: That material coating.

Guest (1): Material things.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Now, we want... Because this want is there... Want is made by own nature, and there is no way throughout our... Now, when we earning means there's so much contami..., I mean, sea of...

Prabhupāda: That is not happiness.

Guest (1): I am just coming to that. I was...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, one point is that earning or begging—beg, borrow or steal—that is not happiness. Because to acquire a standard of happiness you have to beg, you have to earn or you have to steal. So that is not happiness.

Guest (1): No. What I am saying is that as long as a man lives, there are...

Prabhupāda: But we are not talking of "as long as man lives." He lives eternally.

Guest (1): Yes, it is eternal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): And it is eternal thing, bondage, there.

Prabhupāda: No. Bondage for so long you are in this material bondage.

Guest (1): In some, you see, I mean form...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all you have to understand in the spiritual...

Guest (1): Yes, even there is spiritual form, one has to live in certain form, without which...

Prabhupāda: That is natural form. That is not a conventional form. Just like you have dressed yourself with black coat. That is not... It is not your natural form. So material...

Guest (1): Has a spirit no want?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (1): Has a spirit no want?

Prabhupāda: Has spirit...?

Guest (1): Has a spirit not a want?

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Spirit? What is that?

Guest (1): Spirit. Spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, no want.

Guest (1): Without it, you see, I mean...

Prabhupāda: Everything you desire, it is present immediately.

Guest (1): You see, even the spirit has got subtle form, though it may be abstact form.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Guest (1): Though mind has got no form outside, but mind has a form.

Prabhupāda: The spirit has a form.

Guest (1): Intelligence is also accepting...

Prabhupāda: These are different..., different coating. Just like you have got your form, therefore your coat has got a form.

Guest (1): No, I was thinking in this form.

Prabhupāda: Don't think like that way. First of all you try to understand. Because you have got a form, your coat has got a form. You try to understand this.

Guest (1): Yes, water, though may not have form, but it has got form.

Prabhupāda: Why may not? You try to understand practically. You have got a form, therefore your shirt has got a form, your coat has got a form.

Guest (1): That spirit has this form, no? That is what I'm saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So because originally you have got hand, your coat has got hand. Because originally you have got hand, your shirt has got hand. Therefore this form, the material form which you are seeing, it is coating only.

Guest (1): Material form of what?

Prabhupāda: You, me, everything.

Guest (1): No, "me" means what? A spirit?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): That is what I say. Any spirit will have certain form.

Prabhupāda: Not certain form. He has got his original form.

Guest (1): Original means all the... We are living from the eternal...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternally you have got a form.

Guest (1): From the eternal we have got certain form.

Prabhupāda: That is material. Past certain form, that is material. But you have got an original spiritual form.

Guest (1): Spiritual form is there, but due to the bond, man has taken this form.

Prabhupāda: This form is being developed according to your mental condition.

Guest (1): Mental conditions are due to want.

Prabhupāda: Subtle form. Subtle form.

Guest (1): Those are again due to want.

Prabhupāda: Due to want? Yes.

Guest (1): All these forms are due to want.

Prabhupāda: Want. That want, because you are in the material condition.

Guest (1): Every person in a material cond... Spirit in matter remains because both are there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Guest (1): It remains there. Now, as we have got a material form, that special form, material form...

Prabhupāda: Spirit has got no material form. Spirit has got spiritual form.

Guest (1): Spiritual form, but yet also it has got a material form.

Prabhupāda: Because he has come... Just like you have accepted this kind of coat. I have got a different kind of coat. She has got a different kind of coat.

Guest (1): Yes. According to that there is...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So as I liked, so I have got shirt and coat. This is material. But originally, spiritual form is the same as you have got, I have got, she has got a form, everyone. That is original form.

Guest (1): Now, our question... [indistinct] We try. Now, question of earning also, the definition is not here, being...

Prabhupāda: The question of earning comes so long you have got this material form. But from the spiritual form there is no question of earning.

Guest (1): In what way we will live in that spiritual form?

Prabhupāda: That you have to know. That you have to know. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That spiritual form means complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity.

Guest (1): Turiya.

Prabhupāda: Turiya, yes.

Guest (1): In that turiya...

Prabhupāda: This is turiya life: complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity.

Guest (1): You see, because it is a creation of the world... [indistinct] ...we have got beyond that. [indistinct] And that means that matter is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Matter is always there.

Guest (1): Ah. We want to live and enjoy; therefore this universe and all these things. Now, in what perfect form? Because everywhere, in everything, there is a best. Now how everything should take?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Guest (1): The universal form should come to the best. That is the point.

Prabhupāda: Don't talk of universal form. First of all talk of your form. Try to understand your form. Then go universal.

Guest (1): Am I separate from matter?

Prabhupāda: You are not separate. Are you not separate? Then why you are talking with me? Are you not separate with me? Why you have come to inquire from me?

Guest (1): No, no, because we...

Prabhupāda: First of all try to... Are you not separate from me?

Guest (1): In material way, yes.

Prabhupāda: Any way. Any way, are you not separate from me?

Guest (1): Yes, every drop is separate from one another.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Every individual person is separate from one another. Every individual person. So how do you say they are one?

Guest (1): Every individual is separate, but when we come in the prema...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...then every person, until it is the best...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): just an object of...[?]

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is possible. Even... Don't think that when that stage will come there will be no individuality.

Guest (1): Individuality will be there. I do not say that it will not be there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): What I was saying was [indistinct] particular individual in a particular way. Therefore the shape of world is in today is off. But if every individual takes the destined way, which is good enough for every person, then all things can change at once.

Prabhupāda: Now, why do you say that thinking will be stopped?

Guest (1): I do not say, sir. I...

Prabhupāda: So then you say who will think? Thinking will be there; individuality will be there; but there will be no disagreement.

Guest (1): Individuality will be there for the self as well as for all.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): That is what I mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Now, how that kind of living or what kind of religion is that, on that, I mean to say...

Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the authorized Vedic literature. You cannot imagine. You cannot speculate. You have to learn from authority.

Guest (1): Authority...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose if you want to go to Germany. Now you have no idea how the German people live or their..., how they are, what is their custom. So you have to learn. Here is a boy, German. You have to learn from him what kind of life there is. Similarly, there is a life like that. Now, what kind of life that is, you have to ask from a person who has realized that life.

Guest (1): There are two things. I am still, I'm still... We are raised upon this material life [indistinct] that may be available just like air. Air, we do not keep air under lock and key. There is no dearth of time, no dearth of energy, no dearth of resources. Only dearth is that we have no clear perspective [indistinct] we are under control.

Therefore, to the suffering and all these things [indistinct] in the only because of power and our other things, and therefore we have become confused. So from Buddha's time we wanted there should be no sickness, old age and death, etcetera. But it is continuing. There is no such country [indistinct]...

Prabhupāda: But how do you respect these words of Lord Buddha, first thing is?

Guest (1): No, I have got one thing, you see, that it is through the diffusion [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Lord Buddha, we have to accept him as an authority, Lord Buddha. Now, he gives you idea that no misery. So how do you accept these words of Lord Buddha?

Guest (1): No, I do not, because that was not..., has not come into humanity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he was giving that hint in spiritual life, not in this life.

Guest (1): Yes. So I wondered that if we can create, when we are free from this. And we do not fight on the air. We fight on the things which are scarce. And why there is a scarcity? Because we are not [indistinct] people. Therefore there is a scarcity. Now if we think on that point, and all this is clear, then, when there is no want of life of a material even thing, then every person rises himself from this material...

Prabhupāda: First thing is... May I ask your name?

Guest (1): Bateya.

Prabhupāda: Batel.

Guest (1): "Ya." Bateya [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Batey

Guest (1): Bateya.

Prabhupāda: You belong to this province?

Guest (1): No, I came from Sindh, Karachi.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Bateya. I see. [indistinct], this process, this transcendental knowledge, super..., superhuman knowledge, you cannot think first of all. You cannot think. You have to learn.

Guest (1): To realize all these things.

Prabhupāda: Realize after learning from the authority.

Guest (1): Because you see, this question I have asked from 1939. There was a little problem in Karachi. [indistinct] I was very fond of my father. He died when I was only ten. I thought on, "What is this?" and all these things, [indistinct] in foreign countries even. I thought, "Why we are, humanity, is suffering all these things?" It was this question in my mind and what other, I thought of these problems, even though [indistinct].

This appeared as invisible, you see, and material, but to me, inside, it is, you see, a teaching, because it was not taught for any individual or for any country. It is taught for all men beyond the world so that we can bring that kind of life...

Prabhupāda: Now you are thinking from your side.

Guest (1): Not just from my..., as a particular person, but as of the, our own humanity, as a spiritualist.

Prabhupāda: The spiritual knowledge is called tat knowledge, tat, oṁ tat sat.

Guest (1): Oṁ tat sat. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oṁ tat sat. So the tat knowledge is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, tad-viddhi. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Praṇipātena. You understand praṇipāta? Surrender.

Guest (1): Surrender.

Prabhupāda: So tad viddhi. If you want to understand that transcendental knowledge, then you have to accept this process, praṇipāta. Praṇipāta means surrender, and surrender means there must be somebody to whom you surrender.

Guest (1): Whom you surrender, yes.

Prabhupāda: There are two, not alone. So you cannot alone think of tat knowledge. You have to surrender to somebody. That is the process.

Guest (1): There are eight kinds of all getting the knowledge, means bhakti...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is a process. Bhakti is not knowledge. That knowledge you acquire by your sense perception, and bhakti is the pure activities of the senses.

Guest (1): No, surrender means, in bhakti, one surrenders to...

Prabhupāda: No question of bhakti. That is the process. If you want to know about tat, then that is the process. You have to surrender. So long you will think that "I can think of; I have got power," you'll be failed.

Guest (1): That consideration of "myself," "I am thinking," that is not there.

Prabhupāda: Then who is thinking?

Guest (1): Thinking means...

Prabhupāda: No, no, don't use abstract knowledge. As soon as you are thinking, you are thinking.

Guest (1): No, that sometimes thinking, when you are listening inside you, thinking comes...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, listening or thinking, these are different process of acquiring knowledge. But you are doing that.

Guest (1): Yes, my outer form is doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): But inner form may be...

Prabhupāda: What is that inner form? You are inner form. Your outer, your coat, is not thinking. Your shirt is not thinking. What you mean by "outward," "inward"? Inward you are. Outward, your coat and shirt. Do you think your coat and shirt is thinking? You are thinking.

Guest (1): Yes, I am thinking, but, you see...

Prabhupāda: There is no "but." You are thinking.

Guest (1): I am thinking. One is at the lower level, and one is at the higher...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Either in the lower level or in the higher level, you are thinking.

Guest (1): Yes, all right.

Prabhupāda: And therefore, because you are thinking in the lower level, therefore your thinking is imperfect. So to be in higher level, you have to surrender to a higher personality.

Guest (1): Higher wouldn't be better than that?

Prabhupāda: Just like child is thinking something. His thinking is lower level. But when he inquires from his father, that is higher level. The same thinking is he, but one stage his thinking is lower level; in another stage his thinking is higher level. But thinking always, he.

Guest (1): Yes, thinking is his always.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So tat knowledge is higher level, and therefore you have to accept that tat knowledge from a higher-level personality, not from..., by yourself, because you are in the lower level.

Guest (1): No, how do we know lower level and higher level?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not know; therefore you... Why you are thinking? Because you do not know.

Guest (1): No, it is not that...

Prabhupāda: Then there is no question of asking me. Then you think yourself.

Guest (1): No, we were trying...

Prabhupāda: Now first of all you try to understand the principle. Why you have come to ask me?

Guest (1): Not ask, but just...

Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking on the lower level.

Guest (1): No, no, to configure over it, not to ask or...

Prabhupāda: Why configure? Configure does not mean that you have thought something in lower level, I have to confirm that.

Guest (1): Not even that. We have all...

Prabhupāda: Then, if you are thinking right, if you are thinking on the higher level, there is no question of coming to me.

Guest (1): There is no question of coming or going. Just it was that...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, inquiry.

Guest (1): No, no, spiritual endeavor. There is no use in that. It may be in lower level or higher level.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is. There is. There is. Higher level, lower level, there is, as soon as there is thinking, feeling and willing. These are the activities of the mind, and there is higher level, lower level, etc....

Guest (1): In that we are missing the main twist out of whole thing.

Prabhupāda: The main twist... But main you are not missing. The point is that if you continue to think on the lower level, then how you can reach to the higher level?

Guest (1): What is the distinction between higher and lower?

Prabhupāda: You do not know? A child is thinking.

Guest (1): No, let us think of what is the highest thing.

Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the highest man. Yes. That is Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (1): No, no. Let us hear it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says that tad viddhi: "You understand that transcendental knowledge by surrender." So if you do not surrender, there is no possibility.

Guest (1): But I might have surrendered myself to my own...

Prabhupāda: That is..., that is another foolishness. You are thinking lower level, and how you can surrender to yourself? Then how you can get advance? Your surrender means to a superior person, as soon as you call surrender. And without this, there is no possibility.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

We have to accept these principles; otherwise how it can make the... There is no possibility. Just like if you want to be educated, you have to be admitted to an institution, in school, in a college. If you say, "I shall be educated at home," that is not possible.

Guest (1): Many have...

Prabhupāda: No "many." This is the general process.

Guest (1): No, general process sometimes have failed.

Prabhupāda: No, why fail? The schools are going on. Colleges are going on.

Guest (1): Therefore they are fearing also...

Prabhupāda: Still, they are not closed.

Guest (1): Closed... Today they are coming to that.

Prabhupāda: That is another theory. But the process is, our Vedic process, tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 11.2.12]: "In order to understand tat knowledge one must approach a spiritual master." Gacchet. If you don't accept these principles, then how you can make progress? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21].

If you don't accept this principle, there is no possibility. Then you can go on thinking in your own way. There is no question of going to anyone. You make yourself perfect by thinking, as many others are doing, speculating. That is possible. But never to the perfectional [indistinct].

Guest (1): Perfectly, you see... What is the category of different perfection?

Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. That you have to learn.

Guest (1): No, no, learn from whom?

Prabhupāda: From the higher authority.

Guest (1): So how we know?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, who is higher authority. That you have to search out. That you have to search out.

Guest (1): We must understand what is higher person and what is lower, and whether Buddha is correct or not.

Prabhupāda: Now, higher authority... Suppose we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher.

Guest (1): It is accepted.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Do you accept that?

Guest (1): I mean, I am shown the form. You see...

Prabhupāda: There is no question... Kṛṣṇa is accepted higher authority not only by us, by big ācāryas like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, those who are guiding our Vedic life in India, Caitanya. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the highest authority.

Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nāsti [Bg. 7.7]: "There is no more higher authority than Me." Then if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, that is your business, but we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority.

Guest (1): So something is coming in that way because Kṛṣṇa, that was what He had said in a particular time or time frame...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Authority means..., it does not mean a time.

Guest (1): No, for that time.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try, try... Authority means...

Guest (1): For the time.

Prabhupāda: All the time. That is authority.

Guest (1): No, but later, later, many lights shining...

Prabhupāda: [knock on door] [aside:] Yes, open it.

Anyway, to make cut short, to make cut short, so far we are concerned, we have declared, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness." Our process of propaganda is that Kṛṣṇa is the highest authority. That is our... You may take it that we are limited; that is your business. But we have taken this. Now, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, then there is no question of inquiring from us.

Guest (1): What is the form, you see, I mean...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the form. Here is Kṛṣṇa's form.

Guest (1): No, no, not that form.

Prabhupāda: Then what form?

Guest (1): What I mean is we are accepting anything to bring ourselves to certain destination which will satisfy us all. For that we are...

Prabhupāda: Nothing can satisfy everyone. That is not possible. There is no such thing within this material world which can satisfy everyone. There is no such thing.

Guest (1): Because we are not...

Prabhupāda: No, no, because... There may be so many "because." But the fact is that there is nothing in this material world which can satisfy everyone.

Guest (1): There can be a method which can.

Prabhupāda: Maybe, but we do not know.

Guest (1): Therefore beyond that, you see, I came...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa. We accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme authority. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Who is accepting this? We have accepted. Some others may have accepted. But you have not accepted. So therefore even Kṛṣṇa's injunction is not accepted by everyone, what to speak of others. So therefore you cannot find out within this material world anything which can satisfy everyone. That is not possible.

Guest (1): We have not found that.

Prabhupāda: You may think, but we have concluded that there is nothing, such thing, which can satisfy everyone. It is not possible.

Guest (1): Until we hear all, we may do that...

Prabhupāda: That may be an ideal. But we take Kṛṣṇa as the highest authority. Even Kṛṣṇa's words are not accepted. That's a fact. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So a few persons might have surrendered to Him. Even Kṛṣṇa was present, only the Pāṇḍavas and the inhabitants of the Vṛndāvana and Dvārakā, some of them understood that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. But many did not accept Him. Many insulted Him. Just like Śiśupāla insulted Him. So even Kṛṣṇa could not be accepted.

Guest (1): Accept..., I accept every person. That is no question of accepting or...

Prabhupāda: No, no, your... I have summarized that first of all you have come to inquire from us that our standard of knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as the standard of perfection of knowledge, then there is possibility of our talking. Otherwise simply waste of time. Why should we waste our time? Our standard is Kṛṣṇa.

If you are agreeable to accept the standard of Kṛṣṇa, then there is possibility. Just like here is a lawyer. He goes to the lawyer. He speaks, he pleads, on the standard of the law books. If somebody comes, "No, no, I don't accept this," then there is no question of argument. Both the lawyers are arguing. The central point is the law book. So you must have a central point on which we shall talk. If you have no central point...

Guest (1): Central point of happiness is there now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, your point is happiness; my point is happiness. That is all right. But what is that happiness? Just like the same example can be that two litigants, they have gone to the court. Their aim is justice. But how that justice can be had, that is an argument, and on the point of law. Similarly, everyone's point is happiness. And what is that standard of happiness, that you have to take from some authority. That authority we accept Kṛṣṇa.

And if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then we cannot come to the conclusion what is happiness. So you will simply waste our time.

[aside:] [indistinct]

[break] You see? It was... Sometimes the light was coming, sometimes... That means they were adjusting. There was some meeting, adjusting. As soon as it is coming to the real point, it was light. And as soon as not in the real point, there is no light. So it is a science. Therefore the Vedas says, tad-vijñānam. It is a vijñāna. It is not a theoretical, whimsical...

Guest (1): It is to be felt.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. It is to be learned, just like the electrician learns how to adjust the positive and negative wire, and as soon as it is rightly adjusted there is light. You cannot say, "No, no, why it shall be adjusted like this? It can be done like this." Oh, that will not give you light. You cannot speculate on the science. One plus... Two plus two equal to four. You cannot speculate, "Oh, can it not be three? Cannot be five?" No, that is not possible. You have to accept this two plus two equal to four.

The same example: so long it was not being adjusted to the right point, there was no light. So this adjustment... Suppose there is failure in my home. For this adjustment I have to call an experienced man. You may be a lawyer, you may be very nice thinker, but so far electricity is concerned, you have to call for a mistrī, who may not be learned like you but he knows the art, how to do it, expert. Similarly, such a vast subject, to understand God, you do not require the help of an expert?

Guest (1): I did not take that...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't mean you. Anyone. Anyone. If for ordinary things we have to call for an expert, to understand God is it not necessary to approach an expert? What do you think, Manuel?

Manuel: Yes, [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: That is... Therefore the Vedas says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ: "In order to know that transcendental science," sa gurum evābhigacchet, "he must go to a guru. He must approach." A guru means not bogus guru. One who knows, expert. But one has to do that. There is no other alternative. That is the injunction of every Vedic śāstra. And this order is from the Kathopaniṣad. Then, on the Bhagavad-gītā the same thing is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34].

Praṇipāta means surrender. Surrender where? Where to surrender? To a coolie? No, to a superior person, guru. Similarly, Bhāgavata says, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]: "One who is inquisitive to understand the spiritual science," tasmād, "therefore," guruṁ prapadyeta, "must surrender to a guru." Just our this morning prayer is guru, beginning of life, beginning of day's work, first worshiping guru.

prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya
vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

So in our this Vedic way of life, to accept guru is essential. Even big, big ācārya... Even Kṛṣṇa, He accepted guru, Sandipani Muni. Lord Caitanya accepted guru, Īśvara Purī. They are perfect, but still, the ways They are showing because They are ācārya. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, taking the part of the ācārya, so He is also accepting, although the fact is as soon as went to, within a few days He learned everything. That is stated in our Kṛṣṇa book.

Within a few days He became expert warrior, expert magician, expert yogī, every..., so many things, all arts. But He learned from a guru. He is perfect Himself, Kṛṣṇa. He is called Yogeśvara. He knows all the yoga process, but still, in order to teach us, because He is playing the part of a teacher, He shows us that you must learn from guru: "I am learning from guru."

So any science, you cannot learn it automatically by yourself. No. That is not. Then we shall create so many mental speculators, so many things. That will be not a science. Even all scientists, they accept a formula from an authority: "Law of gravitation." They accept it. Then their physical, so many things they discover. But accept one formula. Just like this formula is given by Sir Isaac Newton. So they accept guru.

So from all practical point of view, the things which are unknown to us, we have to accept a guru. For things unknown to us. Now, there is another verse: parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ [SB 5.5.5]. Abodha-jātaḥ. We are all born ignorant. Is it not? What do you think? Are you not born fools? Is it not?

Guest (2): Jñānena [indistinct], not...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean to say, take our present position. You were born, I am born, he is born, everyone. Are we not born foolish? What do you think?

Haṁsadūta: The only sense is cry...

Prabhupāda: So many ways we do not know. There is some trouble, I am crying, child is crying, and the mother knows that "He is suffering. Give...," seeking the help of the mother. Then we are going to school. The father is training, mother is training. Are you not born foolish? In the Bhāgavata says, abodha-jātaḥ: "born foolish." Everyone is born rascal. So if he does not take help from the authorities, how he can make progress? You have become lawyer by sitting at home?

Guest (2): No, no. I take tests for many time. I look at books and I take test for one year, twelve, fourteen hours.

Prabhupāda: That is the process. So how can you deny to understand the supreme science—you can do it independently? No, that is not possible. Therefore it is the verb, the form, gacchet. It is called vidhiliṅ. You know Sanskrit? Yes. This form of verb is... Perhaps you also know: gacchet, kuryāt, gadyat[?]. These are vidhilin. Vidhiliṅ means that is compulsory. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He knows Sanskrit very well. Compulsory. Therefore it is said gacchet, compulsory. Tad-vijñānārtham... Tat, the transcendental knowledge; vijñāna, that is science. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva niścayate [MU 21.2.12]. Eva is niścayate. Eva means "certainly." And again gacchet, "must go." Now, just like to be educated one must be admitted in a school. Must be. Now, what kind of school he has to select, that is another thing, but he must. That's a fact. Similarly, you have to accept a guru.

Now, whom you will accept a guru, that is another thing. But you have to do it. That is the injunction of all śāstras. Vedic process is like that. This upanayana, the sacred thread, upanayana. Upa means near, and nayanam means bringing. Anayanam, coming or going, like that, nayanam. So "to go near the spiritual master," upanayana.

Guest (3): Upanayana-saṁskāra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that sacred thread is the certificate that he has accepted a spiritual master. That is our Vedic system, identity, thread, sacred thread. So the upana... The saṁskāra is called upanayana-saṁskāra. Upanayana means he has gone near the spiritual master; therefore he is now dvija, second birth. When a person goes to the spiritual master, that is his second birth, because he is born foolish.

Take birth by the combination of father, mother—that is material birth—that is a birth of ignorance, just like animals. The animals also take their birth in that way. There is no different process, the sex life. So what is the difference between animal and man? Therefore upanayana, dvija.

Guest (3): Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ.

Prabhupāda: Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Unfortunately there is no saṁskāra at the present moment. So therefore they remain śūdra. A śūdra means fourth class. So how a fourth-class man can speculate on the science of God?

Guest (2): But śūdras are not allowed to upanayana-saṁskāra.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no, no. Now, don't take that way. One who does not take saṁskāra, he is śūdra. Because janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. So everyone is born śūdra. But if one does not accept the saṁskāras, he remains a śūdra, not that śūdras are not allowed to take saṁskāra. Then how it is, that janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ?

Guest (4): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: There are many instances. But this very word, "by birth one is śūdra," so there is no discrimination that "You are not śūdra. I am not...," by birth, abodha-jāto, because he is born foolish, rascal. Now, by saṁskāra, by culture, by education, he becomes a dvija, second birth.

The practical example is these European and American students. They were doing all nonsense, but since they have come to guru their life is reformed; therefore they are dvija. Saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, veda-paṭhet... Now, when he becomes dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas; not as a śūdra. When we say śūdra has no right to study Vedas, that means he will not be able to understand.

Just like you became lawyer, but the condition is, unless you become graduate, unless you have graduated yourself, you cannot enter law court. That does not mean law is prohibited for anyone. It is open for everyone, but first of all you make yourself university graduate; then enter law. Similarly, everyone is śūdra.

Guest (2): A particular standard of understanding should be qualified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless he has got saṁskāra, he is enlightened by culture and knowledge, unless he has become dvija, then there is no authority for studying Vedas. Veda-paṭhet. After one has become dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, and veda-paṭhed bhaved vipraḥ. Vipra. Then he becomes... Gradually increasing. From śūdra he comes to dvija, then vipra. And after being vipra, after studying all the Vedas, when he realizes Brahman, then he is brāhmaṇa. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that, gradual process, gradual process, and to make him a qualified brāhmaṇa. And when he becomes brāhmaṇa, then he knows Brahman. Then he makes spiritual progress. Without... Therefore, without becoming brāhmaṇa nobody can make spiritual progress. That is the door of spiritual knowledge. Then he makes progress, makes progress. So after understanding Brahman knowledge, then he comes to Paramātmā knowledge, then he comes to Bhāgavata knowledge.

Guest (4): Veda says, [indistinct Sanskrit].

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bala-mūrti-tejaḥ. So this is the scientific process. It is vijñāna. Tad-vijñānam. And in the Seventh Chapter in Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitaṁ [Bg. 9.1]. Jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitaṁ. It is vijñāna. It is science.

Guest (3): Jñāna means knowledge.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Vijñāna is practical application.

Guest (3): When you apply jñāna and...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is vijñāna. That is vijñāna. So jñāna knowledge, first knowledge, is what is God; what is God and what is my relation with Him. This is knowledge. Then you... When you act according to that knowledge, that is vijñāna. That is bhakti. When you understand fully well that "God is great, and I am a small, minute part and parcels of God," and then you understand that the part and parcel's duty is to serve the whole... Is it not? Just like the finger is part and parcel of my body. Its duty is to serve the whole body. Similarly, if we accept, if we understand that "I am part and parcel of God," then my duty is to serve God.

But people are being misled that he is thinking God himself, although he is under so many restrictions and stricture of the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāṇi guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. He is so foolish and rascal that he is thinking, "I am independent." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā karta aham iti manyate. He is strictly under the stringent laws of material nature, but still, he is thinking falsely that "I am supreme. I am independent." So therefore surrender required, that "I am not supreme."

That is knowledge. That is knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]: "After many, many births of this speculation, when actually he becomes jñānavān, wise, then he surrenders." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. So unless we surrender, so long we think that "I am independent. I am God. I am Supreme," these are all illusions. What do you think?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is illusion, simply illusion. If I am God, how I have become so much dependent on the laws of material nature? Why I have accepted this body, which I do not want? What kind of God I am? So the whole world is full of these ideas. So this movement is a revolutionary movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (5): [Hindi] What is the meaning of God.

Prabhupāda: He does not... He does not know what is meaning of God. He thinks that God is something plaything. Therefore he claimed that "I am God." He does not know what is God. Therefore God personally showing, He's coming, Kṛṣṇa: "What is God, see." God is from very beginning God. Kṛṣṇa, from the birth He is God. He hasn't got to meditate. He hasn't got to go to the forest and..., to become God. He is God.

Guest (5): God is made for [indistinct], sir.

Prabhupāda: Not "God is made." God is never made. God is God.

Guest (5): But, sir, G means [Hindi?]

Prabhupāda: That is your speculation: G means this, O means this, this means this. That you can interpret in so many ways, [chuckles] but God is God. God is great, Brahman. Brahman means great. Para-brahman, the greatest. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest (3): Before the birth of Lord Kṛṣṇa, was God existing? God exhibit temporally...

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn what is the birth of Kṛṣṇa. You do not know. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. You do not know what is the birth. You are thinking that He is, like ordinary man, He has taken birth. Otherwise why does He say, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ? Nobody knows what is His birth? He thinks He's...

Just like a child sees daily that the sun rises from the eastern side—therefore eastern side is the father of sun. Is eastern side father of the sun? Sun is always there, but you see in the morning it is appearing from the eastern side. That's all. It is your angle of vision. Not that sun is born, taking birth from the eastern side. Sun is always there in the sky.

Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is always there, but to the foolish person it appears that He is born. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā. Ajo 'pi: "I have no birth." Ajaḥ. This very word is used. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san. So how you can compare Kṛṣṇa's birth like ordinary birth? If anyone knows what is Kṛṣṇa's birth, he becomes liberated. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ.

So that knowledge is not tattvataḥ knowledge, that Kṛṣṇa's birth. Kṛṣṇa's birth is every moment. Like the sun. Now here it is not sunshine, but in another place the sunshine is rising. So is that the birth, or when the sun will rise here, that will be birth? Which will be the birth of sun?

Guest (3): It will always be there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already there, but when you see, you see, you see that it is birth. The sunrise is already somewhere, and the sunset is also already somewhere, but in your angle of vision there is no sun. That is going on. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's birth, every moment; Kṛṣṇa's disappearance, every moment; Kṛṣṇa's existence, every moment. You have to learn that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, janma karma me divyam [Bg. 4.9], transcendental. Yo janati tattvataḥ. Anyone who knows it perfectly, in truth, he becomes liberated. If you have known Kṛṣṇa, then you are liberated.

But Kṛṣṇa knowing is not so easy.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

It is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth. Then how one can understand? That is also stated: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Not by speculation of knowledge. Bhaktya. And what is that bhakti?

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

[Cc. Madhya 19.167 Brs. 1.1.11]

So these things you have to learn. Then there is possibility of knowledge, tad-vijñāna. The difficulty is at the present moment the theory that everyone can invent his way of understanding God. He can speculate. Therefore there is chaos. There is chaos. If you want to save yourself from this chaotic condition of life, you must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our proposal.

[aside:] Give me that knife. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not so many. Begin. Aiye.

[break] ...friend of Kṛṣṇa. How much exalted he is, a great warrior, and he has the right to talk with Kṛṣṇa on equal level. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as a spiritual master. And he said, "The confusion which I have created, it is not possible for me to clear it. It is You only who can clear, I know. Therefore I accept You as spiritual master." Therefore it is required that one should know who can clear your confusion, and there you must surrender. [aside:] Anyone? Everyone. You come. Come on. Not in the left hand. Don't give anything by left hand; don't take anything. That is a etiquette. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Yes.

Guest (2): I'll will come here tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Oh, you haven't got. You have got? Hare Kṛṣṇa. [birds crying] The sunrise is declared: "Koo-koo koo-koo koo." Yes. [laughter] Nature's way. They'll not sleep any more. Therefore anyone who sleeps after sunrise, he is a rascal. [laughter] He's a rascal. Yes. A child at once, early in the morning, rise. That is nature. But we have created such a life that we have to break all the nature laws, and therefore we suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante [Bg. 7.14].

And one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is free. He is rising early. He has surpassed the māyā. And those who are in māyā, they are sleeping. And those who are not in māyā, they are rising early in the morning. Is it not? Mām eva ye prapadyante: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes free from the māyā's contamination." Just see. There is maṅgala ārati. In Vṛndāvana, just at four o'clock. You have heard?

Yamunā: I was just thinking, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Immediately there is "dung, dung, dung, dung, dung," all temples. Immediately. And people are running. Oh, they will gather all to the Deity, temple. Hundreds of people will go automatically. The same man who was living at home, a very degraded condition, as soon as he goes to Vṛndāvana he becomes habituated to all these things automatically. Automatically. Yes. The society, association, is very important.

Yamunā: Those beautiful birds, the peacock birds, also at this time, they are flying in trees and waking up now and make that sound. Oh, Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: So the society is very important thing. Any, anything, society... The businessmen, they have got their association, society, to improve. Therefore the standard of this International Society will be kept very carefully. Then who will come in touch with this Society will be improved automatically by association. All right.

Even in the bird society there are swans and there are crows, by nature, and the crows will never go to the swans, and the swans will never come to the crows. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Yes.

Therefore society required. Unless you come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, how you can develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The same principle. Satāṁ prasaṅgān... Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathaḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Vīrya-saṁvidaḥ. It becomes very palatable, satāṁ prasaṅgāt, in the association of devotees; not otherwise. [end]