Prabhupāda: What prakṛti? When there is...
Dr. Patel: Na yotsya iti manyase..., mahad yotsya iti manyase mithyaiṣa vyavasāyas te prakṛtis tvāṁ niyokṣyati [Bg. 18.59]. The prakṛti drags you down in that world.
Prabhupāda: Because he was trained up as a fighter.
Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ [Bg. 18.45].
Prabhupāda: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to...
Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, nature has divided it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post of some position without qualification. That must be rectified.
Dr. Patel: That, what you say, that we should not have come in possession of the power in government, is a fact. They are real uncivilized. They have no that quality of government, I mean governing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? There is no kṣatriyas.
Dr. Patel: They... You see, they govern for themselves, and not for the people.
Prabhupāda: There is no brāhmaṇa in the society.
Dr. Patel: If they are there, you know, they are not heard of.
Prabhupāda: No, there are. Just like we are creating these brāhmaṇas all over the world; not many, but some of them. There is at least one ideal class. But the modern societies, they do not want brāhmaṇa, neither anybody interested to become a brāhmaṇa. That is animal society. You cannot ask a dog, "Please come here. I shall train you as a brāhmaṇa." [laughter] That is not possible. [laughs]
Dr. Patel: Our mixing of the Western type of society...
Prabhupāda: Western, Eastern, we don't...
Dr. Patel: We have actually imbibed their spirit of special, I mean, arrangement or management. Otherwise, up to the other day, we were well, I mean, classified.
Devotee: Social orders.
Dr. Patel: After doing that fifty or hundred years, perhaps, we have lost our real mooring.
Prabhupāda: No. It is necessary that in the society all classes of men must be there. Then it will be in order, on order.
Dr. Patel: The classes are complementary.
Dr. Patel: The highest evolved man, the brain trust of the country, has got to be poor and has to be protected by other men. That is the highest. Otherwise, if a man with the brain becomes rascal, it will become..., that is what is happening today.
Prabhupāda: Miscreant. They are called duṣkṛti. They have got merit..., they have got merit, but engaged in sinful activities. That is called duṣkṛti. Kṛti means meritorious. But duṣkṛtina. There are now... The education is there, but their brain is misused. That is called duṣkṛtina. Therefore they do not believe in God. Big, big men, they are nirākāra-vādī.
Dr. Patel: This current education is no education at all. Education, that was really imparted by [indistinct] and...
Prabhupāda: Education..., and this is craftsmanship.
Dr. Patel: I had an appointment to speak on education in the university of Bombay as a member of the Senate. And the all, I mean, all the members of the Senate simply said, "Well, we could not help it because we have been so..., it has been so planned by the government." That is not... This is not education that we're giving them. We are just giving them instruction how to read and write. The real education is the education of the mind, by which you can discriminate what is right from the wrong and follow the right. That is what education is meant by the ancient universities. Modern universities are humbugness to me. The way I observed the university of Bombay working for ten years as a member of the Senate is humbug. The curriculum is humbug; the management is humbug---everything. Mode of examination is also like that.
Prabhupāda: Because they are not conducted by really educated. [chants japa]
Dr. Patel: The education that has been actually put in practice in India by Macaulay was just to prepare people to run their institutions.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] Where is Girirāja? Can you call him?
Prabhupāda: He said, Girirāja, that there is some declaration by Vinoba Bhave that "I'm now going to retire."
Dr. Patel: Who? Vinoba Bhave?
Prabhupāda: "Completely. And now I shall endeavor for mokṣa." So that means till now he was not on the liberation platform.
Indian: He is... Vinoba Bhave is really a brāhmaṇa. He is truly a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. That may be. Brāhmaṇa is sattva-guṇa. That may be. But that does not mean liberation. There is knowledge. At least he understands what is liberation and what is not.
Dr. Patel: Knowledge put in practice is, I mean, vijñāna. Jñāna vijñāna saha.
Prabhupāda: So if he's trying for becoming liberated, it is understood that he was not liberated.
Dr. Patel: He must have been disillusioned by all this. He has really done work in this way that anybody would be disillusioned, even you.
Prabhupāda: Now, our point is that if you are not liberated, how you can become leader? That is cheating.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi] This is no [indistinct] here. The political, socio-political... You can call it some..., I don't know the sort of...
Prabhupāda: Our point is that if you do not get knowledge from liberated person, that knowledge is useless. That is cheating. [break] It is very easy. Just like a child = if he takes your direction, he liberated, and if he acts according to his childish nature, then he's conditioned. If you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated; he is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mām eva ye prapadyante [Bg. 7.14]. Anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and strictly follows what Kṛṣṇa says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned.
Dr. Patel: It is what? Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]?
Prabhupāda: Yes, and it is very easy = "Henceforward I shall simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says." That's all. You become liberated immediately. It is one minute's task simply to decide that "No more my concoction, my imagination." Then he is liberated.
Dr. Patel: But this decision, all these things is done by the mind, which has got all the vartmas, vartmas of the past births.
Prabhupāda: Mind may be, but if I ask the mind that "You cannot do anything except what Kṛṣṇa says," then you are liberated. Very easy. You see? We are doing the same thing. We are not liberated. I am not liberated. But I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. That's my doing.
Dr. Patel: You mean sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ [Bg. 18.45]. That is your duty you have. That is what [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: So that verse is very important. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. As soon as you become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated. Not that liberated means one has to grow four hands and eight legs. No. Simply you have to change the consciousness, that "Henceforward I shall act only as directed by Kṛṣṇa." That's all. You are liberated. It is one minute....
Dr. Patel: How do you get that direction moment by moment, hour by hour?
Prabhupāda: By His representative, by His words. They are present. Where is the difficulty to get His direction? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. One who has seen, one who has understood Kṛṣṇa, take direction from him = "He's My representative." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If you get right guru, then you are liberated. If you follow the direction, if you want to please him, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ, then you are liberated. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this? Mām eva ye prapadyante. There is no need of waiting for liberation. "As soon as one surrenders to Me, he is immediately above the platform of māyā." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So what was the Vinoba Bhave's statement published in the paper?
Girirāja: That he's not going to give any more public lectures and he's not going to give any more advice to any institutions.
Prabhupāda: But now he's thinking that it is useless. Otherwise why he would say like that? And mokṣa? He's going to try for mokṣa?
Girirāja: Yes. He's saying that by reducing these activities he wants to get mokṣa.
Prabhupāda: So our point is that if he was not on the platform of mokṣa, liberation, why did he waste his time by spoiling himself and for spoiling others? Now he has come to his senses, that is good, but it is to be understood that he simply spoiled his time and spoiled others' career by misleading them. Thus, without being liberated, nobody can guide anyone. That is useless. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If you have no eyes, then how can you lead others? If you are blind and they are blind, then what is the use of becoming their leaders? Actually all the so-called leaders and scholars, they are blind themselves, and they have become big, big leader. That is the misfortune of the present life. And therefore our proposition is you take direction from Kṛṣṇa and His representative. That's all. That will help you. Try to understand this point. Our system, paramparā system, is that I am just like disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. I don't say that I am liberated. I am conditioned. But because I am following the instruction of Bhaktisiddhānta, I'm liberated. This is the distinction between conditioned and liberated. When one is under the direction of a liberated person... The same thing = electricity. The copper is not electricity, but when it is charged with electricity, if it is touched, that is electricity. And similarly, this paramparā system, the electricity is going. If you cut the paramparā system, then there is no electricity. Therefore it is stressed so much = sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa [Bg. 4.2]. The electricity is lost. These people, they do not know. Now, at the fag end of life, they are thinking, if intelligent person, that "What I have done actually?" If one has sense, he should come to this understanding. By cutting some..., what is that? Dead trees? The civil disobedience began by cutting dead trees. Is it not? Vinoba Bhave, he began his leadership forty years ago by cutting... Gandhi also, civil disobedience. So this kind of leadership might have been little enthusiasm for the time being, but actually what people gain by that, such leadership?
Dr. Patel: [indistinct] he thought anta-kāle 'pi brahma-nirvāṇam [Bg. 2.72].
Dr. Patel: He thought anta-kāle 'pi brahma-nirvāṇam. He thinks that way, that in the last moment he is..., come to that stage, he will be...
Prabhupāda: That is very good, but we should know also that so long, whatever he has done, that is from the blind platform, so nobody has gained anything. And if it was on the real platform, then svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt [Bg. 2.40]. So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is such nice thing that even a little... There are many places it is confirmed that even a person in kṛṣṇa-bhakti stage falls down, being immature, what is the loss there? Bhāgavata... What is the loss there?
Dr. Patel: There is no loss. Kṛṣṇa said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupāda: So that is the... If kṛṣṇa-bhakti, a little done... And what does he gain? If he does not take kṛṣṇa-bhakti and does a duty, what does he gain? Abhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. Abhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. He is strictly following his occupational duty, but he's not a bhakta, what does he gain? Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17]. Can anyone quote this verse?
Dr. Patel: Bhakti is your... Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. If you do your...
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. That is the beginning. That is also bhakti. But bhakti means he must be conscious that "Kṛṣṇa is my Lord. I have to serve Him." That is the beginning of bhakti.
Dr. Patel: If he is not conscious, how can he do work for Him?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning. Then it becomes purified more and more and more and more by service. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. Then he realizes his position. Svayam eva sphuraty... The more he advances in sevonmukha, by service, God becomes revealed to him. And then buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Then as he becomes more confidential, then he is imparted buddhi-yogam, means bhakti-yoga. What is that bhakti-yoga? Yena mām upayānti te: "That bhakti-yoga, by which he can come back to Me." Not that bhakti-yoga means you remain here in this rotten place. Yena mām upayānti te. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam [Bg. 10.10]. He can receive that buddhi-yoga. What is that buddhi-yoga? Yena mām upayānti. So this is required. This is the ultimate goal of life.
Dr. Patel: But that buddhi-yoga which we have left undone in the previous birth, God with His mercy gives you that buddhi...
Prabhupāda: Buddhi-yoga continues, continues. If it is unfinished... Unless that buddhi-yoga is complete, one is not allowed. One is not allowed. He remains within this material world, very opulent position. Position like Indra, Candra, Brahmā. They are devotees, but not pure devotees. They have got some tinge of material enjoyment. Therefore they are given big, big post. One has become Brahmā, one has become the king of heaven, one has become the king of moon planet, sun planet. They are not ordinary living being.
Dr. Patel: Ananya... They are not ananya-bhaktas.
Prabhupāda: No. They had some tinge, that "By bhakti I shall enjoy this material world." And bhakti means anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11] = "I have not at all," niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya [Cc. Madhya 11.8]. They don't care for this Brahmā's post or Indra's post or... They don't care.
Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī [Bg. 13.11].
Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. For a devotee, this kaivalya-sukha of the Māyāvādī, impersonalist...
Dr. Patel: Just like naraka.
Prabhupāda: It is the hell for them. What is this nonsense? Who will understand this? Bhakti is so exalted. Huh? Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. And heaven, tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāya. The heavenly planets, they are will-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. [indistinct] Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī [Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5]. Karmī, jñānī... Jñānī wants kaivalya and karmī wants heavenly happiness. And the yogī, yogī wants to control the senses. So he says that "Yes, we know the senses are very powerful." Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Indriya, it is just like snake. If you play with a snake you do not know at any moment death is there by biting. So although these indriyas are like snakes, kāla-sarpa, venomous serpent, but protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate. We have e... What is called? Extricated? No.
Girirāja: It would be "extracted."
Prabhupāda: Extracted the fangs. What is it?
Dr. Patel: Fangs.
Prabhupāda: The fangs, if they are taken away, it may do like useless. Similarly, for a devotee the indriyas are dangerous. But because devotee, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa, they have engaged their indriyas in the service of the Lord, the fangs are taken away. Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. The whole universe for them is very happy. Everyone in it is very unhappy. For them it is very happy, because he does not see anything which is not suitable for Kṛṣṇa's service. Viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate durdānta indriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate [Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5]. And the post of vidhi, means Brahmā and Mahendra... What is this? Kīṭāyate. It is just like...
Dr. Patel: Bugs.
Prabhupāda: Ha, just like ordinary insects. He is also living entity. He is enjoying in his own capacity, he's enjoying. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhava-vatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ. "It happened so by the little fragmental mercy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore I am offering my obeisances unto You." Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī. Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhava-vatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ [Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5]. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy. A little mercy will render all this. [pause] So what he will do now that he has not said?
Girirāja: He just said that "I will not follow religion in the traditional sense."
Prabhupāda: That means another condition. [laughs] From frying pan to the fire. [laughter] Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna. As soon as you give up religious principles, you are no better than animal. That means he will manufacture---the same disease. "I'll not follow the traditional." This is their death block, that they always think that "I am independent. I can manufacture my way. I can become happy in that way." They're always thinking. And if in a meeting if hundreds of men claps, that is his liberated = "Now it is approved." Who is approving? That is criticized by Bhāgavatam = śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. This approval... They are animals, and they are applauding another animal, that's all. Big animal, that's all. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ. These ordinary persons, they are paśu, and they are applauding. So the man who is applauded, he's another big paśu. That's all.
Girirāja: Camels, asses...
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ.
Dr. Patel: Just like camel and ass. Ahorūpa mahad-guṇaiḥ[?]. One man is preaching...
Prabhupāda: They... It is very difficult. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. They may speak all these big, big words, but they have no qualification. Only disqualification is that they do not accept God as Supreme and His instruction is...
Dr. Patel: They may be accepting God as Supreme, but of their own imagination.
Prabhupāda: That is their imagination. God is canvassing, "Yes, I am here." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "Why don't you think that I am the Supreme?" But these rascals will never believe it. And still they'll write Gītā-pravacana. Very dangerous. Gītā is spoken by God.
Dr. Patel: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Huh? Some portion.
Dr. Patel = He had really... He was believing...
Prabhupāda: No, he wanted to prove himself that he is Puruṣottama.
Dr. Patel: No, he's not Puruṣottama. He does not say that. Puruṣottama is really reality in true sense, and is to be attained.
Prabhupāda: But his disciples say he is more than Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Disciples..., I mean, sannyāsa disciples...
Prabhupāda: That means why he has created such nonsense? If his disciples say something wrong, then that means he is also wrong. These people will never say that "Our Guru Mahārāja is more than Kṛṣṇa." They are not so nonsense. They will say, "My Guru Mahārāja is servant of Kṛṣṇa, and I am his servant."
Dr. Patel: He has said Puruṣottama is really the svarūpa. It cannot be a... Anything which is infinite cannot be grasped by finite senses. That's what he said.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. But disciples say that Aurobindo is more than. This is their knowledge.
Girirāja: That means he's failed as a guru. He hasn't...
Prabhupāda: He could not give them right knowledge. Phalena paricīyate. The paricīya is to be understood by the result. The disciple is the result. If they are so fools, then what is the guru?
Dr. Patel: That's the only... In our Vaiṣṇava paramparā, this Vallabhācārya, the whole lot is now being [indistinct]. I have seen it.
Prabhupāda: They are criticizing us.
Dr. Patel: I mean [indistinct]. This thing is disturbed by us. This thing is the God has to reincarnate Himself again to reestablish the bhāgavata-dharma.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. If you don't mind that, your Swami Nārāyaṇa is also like that.
Dr. Patel: All of them. They are [indistinct]. That is why, I mean, liberation is created by God again by the incarnation.
Prabhupāda: They create a cheap God. Real God they reject. That is going on.
Dr. Patel: Swami Nārāyaṇa said that [Sanskrit]. We have only to worship Kṛṣṇa. Nobody else. Unfortunately the disciples... Suppose the disciples tomorrow...
Prabhupāda: That the same thing. If the disciples are rascals, then what is the guru?
Dr. Patel: The disciples will call guru Kṛṣṇa again. That is what happens in all the other Vaiṣṇava groups, you see. They say "Vallabhācārya Mahāprabhu" in place of "Kṛṣṇa." That is wrong. Yathā..., yathā deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā... [ŚU 6.23]
Dr. Patel: Gurau. That is fact. Then you can get the real, I mean, kṛpā of the guru and realize God. But they're...
Prabhupāda: No, these things are happened by Vallabhācārya. That's a long history generally. They call him Mahāprabhu to make competition with real Mahāprabhu, Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya was disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Prabhupāda: Not disciple. Very admirer. But when He criticized him strongly on account of his attacking Śrīdhara Svāmī...
Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu differs in philosophy from Vallabhācārya. He did.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they were friend, Vallabhācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he wanted to present his [indistinct] Gītā to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "You will find better than Śrīdhara Svāmī."
Dr. Patel: That is the highest [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: So He became very dissatisfied. He... Because friendly, He said that "If you don't accept Svāmī, then you are a veśya." These words He dictated = svāmī yei jana na māne veśyara bhitare [Cc. Antya 7.115]. These are there, these words.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya's establishment of his own, I mean, family tradition..., family members as the paramparā is wrong. That is why the whole system has degraded.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not śiṣya-paramparā.
Dr. Patel: Śiṣya-paramparā is the right... The same thing is happening in Swami Nārāyaṇa's. They have become degraded. Because Swami Nārāyaṇa actually put his two nephews in as ācārya. That was wrong. In South with Rāmānujācārya, they have got a śiṣya-paramparā. But they have also degenerated. I mean, this system...
Prabhupāda: No. Sons also may become śiṣya, provided he's qualified. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: These [indistinct] were the real fellows. Real. They..., this śiṣya-paramparā in two...
Prabhupāda: Śiṣyān ca putrān ca. There is no difference. But not because he is śiṣya of such person or putra of such person. Not like that. Either śiṣya or putra.
Dr. Patel: The guru-śiṣya is as good as putra. More than a putra. To a real guru the śiṣya is more than a putra.
Prabhupāda: For guru there is no difference. But the real thing is qualification. That gotra, our gotra, that is applicable to the śiṣya and to the putra.
Dr. Patel: That is in śiṣya-paramparā they have got that, I mean, this...
Prabhupāda: Gotra... Just like Gautama-gotra, Kaśyapa-gotra. This gotra means this family, either śiṣya or putra. Just like Gautama-gotra, there are many brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas. So those who are brāhmaṇas, it means putras, and those who are kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they are śiṣyas. But the gotra is the same. [pause] So we shall go down. [end]