Prabhupāda: ...mām abhijānāti. By bhakti one can understand Kṛṣṇa.
Gurukṛpā: Then they say that understanding means to come to understand that Kṛṣṇa is just the Brahman.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gurukṛpā: That understanding means that Kṛṣṇa's Brahman only.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Gurukṛpā: Kṛṣṇa is representative of Brahman.
Prabhupāda: No. Brahman is on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham [Bg. 14.27]. Why do you go..., deviate from the statement of Bhagavad-gītā? Anyone who deviates from the statement of Bhagavad-gītā, we take him as mūḍha, rascal. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't accept anything else. And we are supported by all the ācāryas. [break] ...practical result.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They try to categorize these modern Hindu deviators, like Vivekananda and Ramakrishna. They try to put them as ācāryas also.
Prabhupāda: All rascals. They are not ācāryas.
Gurukṛpā: Last night this boy sits down and immediately he says, "Well I am a Hindu." I said, "What is this Hindu business? We are not interested in Hindu." Then he said, "Well, you do not know." So "How you can say we do not know?" "Well, I was born a Hindu." So I said, "So how do you know what I was born? What does that matter, where we were born? That is not... A learned person doesn't speak birth." Representing himself as very advanced or something. "Okay, you become Brahman, but we think that that is hell. That is no better than hell for us. And that is the liberation that the demons get. So we are satisfied to chant Kṛṣṇa's name, and we never want to become one. We would rather go to hell, because in hell we can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but in the Brahman we cannot chant."
Prabhupāda: Staunch adherent. [break]
Gurukṛpā: Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when a devotee, he sees a banyan, fruit of a banyan tree, and there are so many seeds within that fruit, and each seed can mean one tree, and one tree means millions of fruits, and in this way the devotee can appreciate Kṛṣṇa. But the jñānīs, they go on speculating, and they can never relish anything, whereas the devotee can simply relish how Kṛṣṇa has done everything in the material nature.
Prabhupāda: [aside] We can go here? No. And no...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It is a little distance there. [break]
Devotee (1): ...devotee is only unhappy to see others unhappy. Does this ever cease? Is a devotee always unhappy because of this?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (1): Is a devotee always in some anxiety to see others unhappy?
Prabhupāda: Yes. How to deliver them, this is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. This kind of anxiety is welcome.
Devotee (1): Yes. Is that also in the spiritual world like this?
Prabhupāda: Yes. In spiritual world there is everything, but only central point is Kṛṣṇa. Here anxiety is "Where I shall get money? Where I shall get woman?" And there is anxiety, "How shall I get Kṛṣṇa?" The anxiety is there. That is the difference.
Devotee (1): But do they have anxiety...
Prabhupāda: Here all people are anxious how to get money and how to get woman. That's all. And there the anxiety is how to get Kṛṣṇa. The anxiety is there, but quality is different.
Devotee (1): If we're in anxiety that we cannot perform devotional service nicely, that is all right?
Prabhupāda: That is devotional side. Kṛṣṇa anxiety itself is the first-class devotional service. If one becomes anxious like that, then he is perfect. Na janma-koṭibhi-sukṛtibhi labhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.70]. After many, many millions of life of pious activities one can get such anxiety. This is not so easy, to become anxious for Kṛṣṇa. You don't think it is like ordinary anxiety. Koṭi-sukṛtibhi. If one becomes full of anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage of perfection.
Devotee (1): So the anxiety that I am always falling down...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (1): We are in the neophyte stage, and we're often falling down.
Prabhupāda: You don't imitate. You follow the rules and regulations. Don't try artificially to be anxious. When you are purified, then you'll get that anxiety, not artificially. Then you are sahajiyā.
Devotee (1): I don't mean to hanker for the anxiety, but to...
Prabhupāda: No, anxiety, that is..., that will come, the perfectional stage. Don't try to be perfect artificially. Perfect stage, we have to follow strictly the regulative principle, the injunction of the spiritual master, śāstra. Then you'll come to that stage. Don't artificially imitate.
Devotee (1): What if one keeps falling down from following the regulative principles?
Prabhupāda: He's falling down? If he's falling down from regulative principles, that means he's falling down to the material world. Falling down means falling down.
Devotee (2): [break] ...down from the regulative principles and feels anxiety, then that anxiety is material anxiety.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): It's not spiritual.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So anxiety for one's self is māyā?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Anxiety for one's self is māyā?
Prabhupāda: That is material.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And anxiety for Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. [break] ...Rupa Gosvāmī's śloka, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.70] = "The anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, if it can be purchased, immediately purchase it." Rūpa Gosvāmī said. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatām: "Just purchase Kṛṣṇa anxiety if it is available somewhere." So the next question will be that "What is the price?" Tatra laulyam ekalam mūlyam: "That anxiety can be purchased by anxiety." "So I'll do it." No. Na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate: "That anxiety is not available even by millions of births' pious activities." So this anxiety is not so easy.
Devotee (1): So if we're performing the Deity worship and we get in anxiety, how to make it nice...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. If you become anxious how to worship Deity, how to dress Kṛṣṇa nicely, how to do, if you remain, that will develop your anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Deity worship essential. Exactly in time to get up, to offer maṅgala-ārati, to dress---this anxiety is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa anxiety. Then, when you become perfect, you'll always be anxious for Kṛṣṇa. And that is perfectional stage. Therefore, by the injunction of the śāstra, regulative, it is a way of creating that anxiety. So we must follow. Then we'll come to the real anxiety.
Gurukṛpā: Not artificially.
Devotee (1): So therefore it is good that we have so much Deity worship to do that we're very, very busy and we do not have any time?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (1): We practically do not have enough time, but that is very good?
Prabhupāda: Enough time?
Devotee (1): To worship the Deity. We have so much to do.
Prabhupāda: So what enough time you want? To go to the cinema? [laughter] Then? Your time has to be occupied by Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That's all. And as soon as you go to other anxiety, then it is māyā.
Gurukṛpā: If we have four hours to dress the Deity, we can use the whole four hours. But sometimes we only have an hour and a half, so we have to rush. So that is anxiety.
Prabhupāda: No, that anxiety does not mean this laziness, that "I am anxiety for four hours. Deity cannot be opened now. I am in anxiety." That is negligence. That is negligence. That is not anxiety.
Devotee (2): When we are distributing books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and we are not doing so good and we are in anxiety, that is also spiritual?
Prabhupāda: That is... For selling books anxiety is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. So if you become very anxious how to sell more books, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That is not trade anxiety; that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety.
Gurukṛpā: So some people say that "When I go on saṅkīrtana to sell books I become in too much anxiety if I'm not doing well, so I'd rather not do it."
Prabhupāda: No, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. He does not know. Let him know that that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. Yaśodā, Mother Yaśodā, became mother of Kṛṣṇa so that she would always remain in anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, whether Kṛṣṇa is safe. That is mother's anxiety. Therefore she became mother. How to become in Kṛṣṇa anxiety? This philosophy nobody knows. Everyone takes Kṛṣṇa as the father. Father means I'm anxiety-less = "Father, you supply my wants." And to become father of Kṛṣṇa means to purchase anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. This philosophy they do not know.
Devotee (2): They say, like that man the other night, he said...
Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa as father means "My father is there. I have no anxiety." And if you accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, then you are full of Kṛṣṇa anxiety. This is the philosophy. And these Māyāvādīs, they cannot understand. They think that "Kṛṣṇa is born of this father and mother. How He is God?" But they do not know the philosophy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They talk of śānti.
Prabhupāda: Mother Yaśodā is always anxious = "Kṛṣṇa is crawling. Whether He is falling down in some water or some monkey has come, hurting Him, or...?" Always. Or "He is touching some fire." Always anxiety. And besides that, the demons are coming. So this is perfection. Always remain in anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. [break]
Gurukṛpā: They just think, na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 12.17].
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī rascal, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has condemned them, māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. If you hear Māyāvādī association, then your bhakti life is finished. Don't touch them. [break] Still, they are little more than the karmīs. [break] ...this place they are dragged through this..., what is called? Short grass? Through this.
Devotee (1): That is anxiety, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is anxiety, when one goes to Yamarāja and has to face.
Prabhupāda: That is the result of material anxiety. [break] To become anxiety-less, no more anxiety, that is nonsense.
Gurukṛpā: They say, "Kṛṣṇa says, na śocati na kāṅkṣati."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gurukṛpā: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati.
Prabhupāda: That is material, śocati, kāṅkṣati. But in spiritual world the same śocati, kāṅkṣati is there, but for Kṛṣṇa. First of all you have to negate the material śocati, kāṅkṣati. Then spiritual, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. Beginning is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then spiritual anxiety begins. When this is neutralized, then actual life begins. That is bhakti. Otherwise what is the mean...? Mad-bhaktim. In bhakti there is anxiety. That is spiritual anxiety.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, what is the meaning of bhakti? It comes after.
Prabhupāda: Zero. They are śūnyavādī, zero, and nirviśeṣavādī. The same thing. But we are not śūnyavādī. Whole is not zero. The anxiety... You cannot become anxiety-less. That is artificial. If you artificially become anxiety-less, then artificially you can remain anxiety-less for some time; again you fall down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Falls down. But the anxiety should be purified. That is wanted. Not anxiety-less. You are living being. You cannot be anxiety... That means you are dead. A living being has no anxiety, that means he is dead. That is not the ideal. The anxiety should be purified from material contamination, and it should be only for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect. Here the anxiety with some designation, "I am the father of this family," this is my anxiety, how to maintain them. "I am the leader of this nation," that is my anxiety. So all these anxieties are material, upādhi. I am neither father nor leader. I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I have created artificial anxieties. So therefore I have to become free from this artificial anxiety. And nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. And when he is pure servant of Kṛṣṇa, he's always anxious how to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is the... The anxiety is there, and now it is purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], completely fresh. And then with that senses, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktiḥ. This is bhakti. Mad-bhaktim labhate.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can't stop na śocati na kāṅkṣati. They have to go further.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And this is negation. Just like one man is diseased. He is also eating, he is also sleeping, but that is not healthy eating, sleeping. He has to get relief from this eating, lying down on the bed and eating by some instrument. This nonsense eating, sleeping should be stopped. And when he's healthy, he eats also, sleeps also. That is different. That is different eating, sleeping, but they do not... He is suffering from disease. He thinks, "Again eating? Make it zero. Make it zero." This is Māyāvādī. He has no taste what is the other eating. He wants to make it zero because here the eating is so botheration, "Oh, let me commit suicide. Make it zero." So that is Buddha philosophy.
Gurukṛpā: Sour grapes.
Prabhupāda: So that is good for the less intelligent class of men. Because they cannot understand what is bhakti, so Buddha therefore says, "First of all make this zero, rascal. Then your real life begins." But what is that real life he did not say, because the rascals will not understand. Simply advised, "You make this zero, śūnyavādī." Then, when time will come, he will understand what is positive.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this process is su-sukham, very, very joyful. So how can we explain to the karmīs that this anxiety...
Prabhupāda: You are not feeling joyful? To chant, dance and eat prasādam is not joyful? Is it not?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then what do you want more? And simply by chanting, dancing and eating prasādam you are making progress. Therefore it is su-sukham. You haven't got to press your nose and make your head down and starve for three hundred years---nothing like that. Go to the forest, go to the Himalayas---no. At your place you chant, dance and take prasādam. That's all. [break]
[in car]
Gurukṛpā: Therefore any other argument that we present, they...
Prabhupāda: There is no argument. "You remain yourself. Let us remain peaceful. You remain peaceful. We are following our mahājana." Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We have got so many exalted mahājanas---Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada, Asita, Devala, Arjuna. In recent..., in the recent years, within two thousand years, all the ācāryas. So we are safe. We don't require your help. Bās. If you are satisfied with whatever you have understood, you remain. [break] ...authorities. And the most exalted of them is Kṛṣṇa, so we have no doubt. You cannot make us doubtful. That is not possible.
Gurukṛpā: But I think they are doubtful, though.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why they come? They're doubtful.
Gurukṛpā: Asaṁśayaṁ samagram.
Prabhupāda: That... Yes. That verse?
mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
[Bg. 7.1]
Asaṁśayam: "Without any doubt, and in fullness, as you understand, I'll see to[?]." This is our faith. We have no asaṁśaya, and we have no imperfect understanding. Asaṁśayaṁ samagram. Asaṁśayam means "without any doubt," and samagram means "in full." You know simply Brahman. That is that full knowledge. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. That's all right. You have come to the light, just like you have come to the sunshine, light, but does not mean that you have gone to the sun globe or you have seen the sun-god. That will take many millions of years to become so perfect. But you have come to the light---that much credit to you. That is ordinary. Everyone sees the sunlight. That does not require much endeavor. But if you want to go to the sun globe and enter there to see the sun-god, then that requires special qualification. So you are ordinary man. You have come to the light from darkness. That much credit to you, that's all. [break]
Gurukṛpā: ...angry about was how they can come to Your Divine Grace and be so puffed up and be insulting.
Prabhupāda: How they are haughty, insulting.
Gurukṛpā: Like you said, he is just a tiny student.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gurukṛpā: He is such a tiny student, and he comes to Your Divine Grace. In all respects, he should at least be a little bit, er, a little bit submissive.
Prabhupāda: But we call them rascals. What is more insulting than...? We call them rascals. A tiny student... A student, he is learning something. But "You are rascal. Nothing at all."
Gurukṛpā: He didn't call us a rascal.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. [interference] ...rejecting Kṛṣṇa, you are rascals. We don't say; Kṛṣṇa says. Because you are not taking Kṛṣṇa seriously, you are mūḍha. [interference] And when he wants to know what is mūḍha, rascal...
Gurukṛpā: [interference] this lifetime.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of becoming perfect. Try to become perfect. That is perfect. Don't become... [interference] Remain always student and try to become perfect. That is wanted. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. We have to [interference]. [break]
Gurukṛpā: That is what Rahūgaṇa, he asked Jaḍa Bharata = "How have you attained such a perfectional stage?"
Prabhupāda: Rahūgaṇaitat tapasā na yāti na cejyayā nirvapaṇād... [SB 5.12.12]
Gurukṛpā: That is our wonder, how Your Divine Grace has attained such a perfectional stage.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The conclusion was that only by the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee. [break]
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] That's all. [end]