Gurukṛpā: ...they can't believe it.
Prabhupāda: But actually we are doing that. Still they do not believe? What kind of mūḍha? Eh? So many of our devotees, they do not work. How they are living?
Gurukṛpā: That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy.
Prabhupāda: So why they do not see to it?
Gurukṛpā: 'Cause they're mūḍhas. They don't believe.
Prabhupāda: They are mūḍhas. Even they see it, still, they do not believe.
Gurukṛpā: They're envious, that we can do it and they can't. If you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then it could be done. If you want to struggle yourself, then you have to struggle. That one lady was... They were criticizing how we have such big building and everything, and then you invited her to come and stay with us and she wouldn't do it.
Prabhupāda: So we shall go again or go back?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go again if you like.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is time. They are very much attached to their sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: The stool, you take them and keep it apart, they will go again to the stool. Nature's way, they must suffer. So-called philanthropic activities, welfare activities---useless. You cannot do any welfare activity; you must suffer. Only way you can do them some good = inducing them chanting. That's all. Otherwise no possibility.
Gurukṛpā: In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam class this morning, that was the verse. The greatest welfare activity is if they hear and chant about Kṛṣṇa's wonderful activities. That is the greatest welfare activity. So yesterday, when that man came from the government...
Prabhupāda: Government?
Gurukṛpā: Yes, the social minister came. He did not... You simply told him to come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't.., couldn't believe it.
Prabhupāda: They are practically seeing and still not believe.
Gurukṛpā: He doesn't have such a nice house.
Devotee (1): He accepts the result, but he won't take the process. He sees that they've given up everything he is trying to defeat---which is sinful activity, illicit sex, intoxication---but he won't take the process.
Gurukṛpā: One reporter told you that she was happy, and you said, "Well, if it is happiness, then it's simply happiness of the dog." So they have become satisfied with that standard of happiness.
Prabhupāda: So why they create this botanical garden? If they are satisfied with the happiness of a dog, then why they spend so much money for this botanical garden? Hmm? Let them be satisfied like dog, lie down on the street. Why this sense of botanical garden? [break] ...tendency for improving, artificially they are curbing down. Evolution there is. Artificially they say, "No. This is satisfied." Why they are making big, big skyscraper building? Let them remain like dog. [break]
Gurukṛpā: ...same for all their purposes, but because they have superior intelligence, they could make a nice facility to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Superior? That means you have got, you, a separate utility for superior consciousness. So we have to search out what is the end of the superior consciousness.
Gurukṛpā: I think that's mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18].
Prabhupāda: Ah, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ. That is intelligence. [break] ...intelligence. Why should you stop in one point? Make further progress. [break]
Gurukṛpā: ...the jñānī, to try to seek out, is better than to be a karmī.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Gurukṛpā: The jñānīs, they are trying to study Vedānta to find out what is the end. So that is better than being karmī.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gurukṛpā: Even if they don't know the answer, they are trying to seek out.
Prabhupāda: No, their answer is there = merging with the Supreme.
Gurukṛpā: But again they must come back. That's not complete liberation.
Prabhupāda: That means not complete knowledge.
Gurukṛpā: So they have also stopped, ended in Brahman.
Prabhupāda: Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32].
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we see that we're dealing mostly with karmīs, not with jñānīs, in our preaching work.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they are simply interested in some immediate satisfaction.
Prabhupāda: Karmīs not. Vikarmī. Karmī, vikarmī, akarmī. We are dealing with vikarmī.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vikarma, oh. Prohibited actions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmīs will not do anything sinful.
Gurukṛpā: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4].
Prabhupāda: Vikarma, yes.
Devotee (2): So why do we call them karmīs?
Prabhupāda: Vikarmīs, opposite karmī.
Devotee (2): So there's practically no karmīs.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sinful.
Prabhupāda: Sinful activities, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Vikarma. Therefore they will be punished in different forms of life. Therefore we find so many species of..., forms of life. This is punishment. But māyā's curtain, they are thinking, "We are happy." Just like this tree is a punishment, but it has no sense that this is punishment.
Gurukṛpā: Thinks he's happy.
Prabhupāda: Standing happily for five thousand years.
Gurukṛpā: Drinking only water.
Prabhupāda: If you are asked to stand here for five hours, you'll feel most uncomfortable. But they are standing for five thousand years, no uncomfortable. This is punishment. Punishment is there, but unaware. So everyone is like that. Anyone in the material world, they are being punished in different degrees, but unaware. That is māyā's grace, that although he is punished, he cannot understand.
Gurukṛpā: So they answer that "If you're happy, then what's wrong with that?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, that class you are here. You go on with that happiness. But we are not satisfied with this. You are rascal. You are happy in that way, but we are not. That is the difference between you and me.
Gurukṛpā: Happiness of the fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer?
Devotee (2): What about on the hellish planets? Do they know they're suffering there?
Prabhupāda: Just like to an animal, whipping is nothing. And for a man, to show the whip is sufficient. So there are different degrees of consciousness. Even a child, he'll be afraid by seeing the whip, and the animal, actually being whipped, doesn't care. That is the difference.
Gurukṛpā: So either they take the śāstra or the śastra.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of śāstra; it is śastra only. When there is no śāstra there must be śastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip. That's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27].
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're suffering, then?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished?
Prabhupāda: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example = the same whip, to the animal it is no suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is unhappiness. And if you think, "Oh, what is there, unhappiness, in dying?" then you are animal. The animal are taken to the slaughterhouse. He is not disturbed. He is eating grass very peacefully. That is the animal life. If you do not understand what is unhappiness, then you are animal; you are not human being. But his unhappiness, that's a fact, to remain in a airtight bag for ten months. If you have no sense, "Oh, what is this?" and still being killed, is it not unhappiness? And if you say, "Where is unhappiness?" then you are a stone. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Janma is unhappiness. First of all you have to remain ten months in a packed-up bag, and that also risk your mother will kill you. And still you say, "It is not unhappiness"? Then what is happiness? You are so dull that you see there is no unhappiness in birth. Practically see.
Gurukṛpā: But they're so nonsense, they say, "Well, I can't remember..."
Prabhupāda: But therefore I say animal. Nonsense means animal.
Passerby: [yells incoherently]
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! [laughter]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think we're funny; we think they are funny.
Devotee (1): Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...difference between animal and man. Therefore if one is not spiritually advanced or has no spiritual sense, he's animal. He is not human being. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. The verdict is already there = sa eva go-kharaḥ. He is nothing, no better than the cows and asses.
Devotee (3): Often the devotee thinks that he's more unhappy than the karmīs because he knows he's unhappy.
Prabhupāda: Then that means he is not a devotee.
Devotee (3): He's not a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's not devotee. Devotee means the first sign will be happy, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. If he's not prasannātmā, he's a rascal. He has not entered even devotional life. He's outside. That is the test. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. When he saw Viṣṇu = "Everything is all right. I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. That is Vaiṣṇava. And if he is still in want or unhappiness, that means he has no spiritual life at all. He is simply making a show.
Gurukṛpā: Our unhappiness is our lamentation for our past sinful activity, and because we're not committing any more...
Prabhupāda: That is another. That is another. That is to remember the terrible condition of karmīs. [break]
[in car]
Prabhupāda: ...devotee who thinks unhappy because he is thinking, "I am not getting tea. I am not getting cigarette. There is restriction of illicit life, no meat-eating..." In this way he is unhappy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He cannot gratify his desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Real devotee will think, "Oh, so many botheration I have now given up." Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6]. Bhakti-yoga means upaśamam: "No more this, all this nonsense." That is bhakti-yoga, anartha-upaśamam, completely given up. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. But they do not know it. They are increasing anartha. They have to give up cigarette? No, they are manufacturing new brand of cigarette and advertising, "Please come. This cigarette is better than the other." This is going on. This is karmī life. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. He has no sense that "I have smoked this cigarette and why, after another cigarette, the same thing?" But no. "I have enjoyed sex here. Why another sex?" He has no sense.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Available in every species of life also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ajñāna. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya [Śrī Guru praṇāma]. This big house... [break] that he will work hard. And he used to do that. You bring money and he'll spend. And if you say, "Sir, we collected this money for this purpose," "Yes," he spent. "You again collect." Somebody has paid that constructing temple, and he has spent for other purpose. Then, when the devotee will say, "Oh, what this man will say?" "That's all right. You collect again." [break] he'll get some money, he'll make some arrangement for doll exhibition and spend the all money.
Gurukṛpā: Are they going to start on Māyāpur building this year?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gurukṛpā: That is beginning?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Collect and spend. Collect and spend for Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. I am therefore asking them to print books. I have got so much money in the Book Fund. Print books. Let there be books stocked and no money stocked. [break] ...upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6].
Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda, we just got here... Now we've just gotten one farm, two hundred acres. We're purchasing this next week. For eleven thousand dollars, two hundred acres.
Prabhupāda: Very cheap.
Gurukṛpā: And it is up north. It is just like India, very hot, and you can grow everything. Hot all year round.
Prabhupāda: So grow fruits, flowers, grains. Keep some men. It is very nice. [break] ...stones[?], they can go.
Gurukṛpā: Yes. They're aren't very attracted to it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A little over fifty dollars an acre? Very reasonable.
Prabhupāda: Very cheap. Very cheap.
Gurukṛpā: Less than that. Twenty dollars.
Prabhupāda: That New Orleans, our farm? It was nice.
Gurukṛpā: Māyāpur is the best farm.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And it will be still better when our plan is made.
Gurukṛpā: We want to set the example this year by also giving a big donation to Māyāpur and also building here.
Prabhupāda: At the same time you see that it is not misspent. That is another defect, that our spending is not very frugal and spend like anything. There must be... But in India they want to cheat you, and you are very expert, being cheated.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is our karma. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Not karma. You are working sincerely, that's all.
Gurukṛpā: We are expert cheaters also. That's how we get the money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are big cheaters. You don't cheat two rupees, three rupees. Two millions. [laughs] That is accusation, Alexander and the thief. The thief accused Alexander the Great that "What is the difference between you and me? I am a small thief; you are a big thief. That's all. Why you are punishing me? You are a big thief. You are doing same thing." Then he was let loose. "Yes, what is the difference? [laughs] I am a big thief." [break] ...means Alexander the Great, actually he was great. Otherwise, he is the emperor, and ordinary thief is accusing him, and he said, "Yes, I am thief." He admitted. That is greatness. That is greatness. If he was not great, then he would have hanged him or punished him = "Oh, you are so... You are accusing me?" But no, he accepted. That is greatness. Mistake is one fault, but to accept that "I have done mistake," that is greatness.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that on the beach in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That when a man admits that he is a mūḍha, he is no more a mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he has understood that "What I am doing? I am mūḍha."
Gurukṛpā: Lord Caitanya says, ayi nanda-tanuja kiṅkaraṁ patitaṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau [Cc. Antya 20.32, Śikṣāṣṭaka 5].
Prabhupāda: Fell down. Yes.
Gurukṛpā: One has to admit that he is fallen.
Prabhupāda: This is the land you wanted to purchase?
Devotee (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So, it is still unsold?
Devotee (1): No one can do anything with it now.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Devotee (1): This neighborhood here, they will not allow any more than three stories to be built. No high rise.
Prabhupāda: Oh. There cannot be any skyscraper building, so no capitalist will purchase.
Devotee (1): And no developer will use it just to make three-story flats, because the land is too expensive. [break] [end]