Prabhupāda: ...is real scientist. Those who change every year theory, I don't like that scientist. Do you like that scientist?
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: Then who? Nobody, no gentleman likes that.
Dr. Patel: He's not a scientist, who changes himself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot change your position. That is science. Kṛṣṇa has said that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So nobody has become greater than Kṛṣṇa up till now. That is science. Can anyone challenge Kṛṣṇa? No. And He has said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. So that is scientist.
Dr. Patel: No, but the scientists try to unearth the secrets of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Scientists, the modern science, is trying to unearth the secrets of Kṛṣṇa only.
Prabhupāda: Trying to...?
Dr. Patel: Unearth the secret of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's māyā.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's māyā.
Dr. Patel: Māyā, we are trying to unearth the secret of Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Those two scientists must come forward, eh? Now he is going to throw a bombshell.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: The difference of each comes in practically two, three Upaniṣads, the one which you have also commented. There is. That happens, the Muṇḍakopaniṣad, the beginning. [Sanskrit] So we are the scientists of the aparā-vidyā; you are the scientist of the parā-vidyā. So we must not have any quarrel. We have divided our sphere of activity.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no quarrel, but we say that these are for the rascals. Yes. Aparā-vidyā is for the rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, no, even the greatest of the saints, namely, the guru of... I mean, Śuka Mahārāja, also he had the first aparā-vidyā. Then parā-vidyā... Aparā-vidyā is the first step.
Prabhupāda: And so long you are in aparā-vidyā, you remain a rascal.
Dr. Patel: No, but we always have to put up our step on the aparā-vidyā. Then you put up your step on the parā-vidyā. You can't jump over it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No. There is no question of jumping, but things should be realized as it is. Aparā... This is aparā; this is parā. So this is inferior; this is superior. That you have to admit.
Dr. Patel: This was the question of Nārada Muni himself in the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And it is explained about aparā-vidyā, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. Therefore rascal, alpa-medhasa. Alpa means no brain, no brain.
Dr. Patel: They have got those questions of bhakti other than of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Alpa, alpa...
Prabhupāda: This aparā-vidyā... Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. So one who... Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa, he is in the aparā-vidyā. And aparā-vidyā is meant for the less intelligent class of men. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām.
Dr. Patel: Then the whole question was, sir, here in Upaniṣad that...
Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: But when, when Muni went...
Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is the beginning of parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. He said that "What you have learned? Let me know what you have learned. Then I will teach you further on."
Dr. Patel: And they said that we have...
Prabhupāda: To know what is your position, whether still you are foolish or you have become intelligent. That is...
Dr. Patel: If he had not become intelligent, he would not have gone there.
Prabhupāda: That has to be... Then...
Dr. Patel: That means he had become intelligent.
Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is all right. He has gone to the.... That is pious. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ [Bg. 7.16]. Anyone who goes to Kṛṣṇa or guru for asking, he is pious. He is not miscreant. Duṣkṛtina. He is not duṣkṛtina. He is pious. Maybe he is in the lower position, but he is pious. That is described. And one who does not go either to Kṛṣṇa or His representative, he is duṣkṛtina, narādhama. This is the difference. One man is suffering from some disease. If he has gone to the physician, he is intelligent. And one who says, "Ha, what is this? I don't care for that," he's a rascal. That's all.
Dr. Patel: He must come to me. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who accepts that "I must be treated," he is intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but parā-vidyā is meant for the body, aparā-vidyā, I mean to say. Parā-vidyā is meant for the soul.
Dr. Patel: So soul and body has got to live together. So there is a necessity of aparā-vidyā also to keep your body going.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Parā-vidyā does not mean to reject the body.
Dr. Patel: Sir, there is a necessity of aparā-vidyā.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No. That is to make the best use of a bad bargain, how to use the body best to perfect parā-vidyā. That is intelligence. Just like you have a car. A car is not neglected. We don't kick out car. But it must be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say, sir, that you must have the knowledge of car, and that knowledge of car is aparā-vidyā.
Prabhupāda: No. No. No. There is no need of. You have the car, you can go from this place to that place very quickly, so utilize it for Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Dr. Patel: They must know how to drive it. That is knowledge. Why do you say no?
Prabhupāda: That automatically comes.
Dr. Patel: How can you automatically? Nothing can come automatically.
Prabhupāda: You'll see many drivers, they do not know about mechanics, but very first class driver.
Dr. Patel: Well, learning driving is a knowledge of driving.
Prabhupāda: Yes, driving, that is...
Dr. Patel: Svarūpa[?], why don't you say something?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Many... Many first-class owner.... You know. You are a physician. You are not a motor mechanics, but you know how to drive. That is not very difficult thing.
Gurudāsa: Isn't it when you drive for Kṛṣṇa, doesn't it become parā-vidyā then?
Gurudāsa: When you drive for Kṛṣṇa, doesn't it becomes parā-vidyā?
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is done for Kṛṣṇa, that is parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: Anything spoken for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is parā-vāṇī, and this is parā-vidyā.
Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva-parā... There is a verse, vāsudeva-parāḥ karma vāsudeva-parā... Like that.
Dr. Patel: Vāsudeva-parā makhāḥ vāsudeva-parā [SB 1.2.28].
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So everything should be for Vāsudeva. And he is first-class wise man who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā... [Bg. 7.19].
Dr. Patel: Sudurlabhaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But such kind of intelligent person is very rare.
Dr. Patel: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sir, you get actually when you become the real Vaiṣṇava, because then you see the presence of God in every inanimate and animate object.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...
Dr. Patel: That is real Vaiṣṇava. Otherwise you are not.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Without Vāsudeva, without Kṛṣṇa's order.... Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. Everything is being done under His superintendence. Mayādhyakṣeṇa. Even in the prakṛti, aparā and parā... There are two prakṛtis. So even in aparā-prakṛti there is superintendence of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: I am interrupting you, sir. Mayādhyakṣeṇa sūyate prakṛtiḥ sa-carācaram.
Dr. Patel: Now then, mayādhyakṣeṇa, we want to learn how He adhyakṣa, and that is our vidyā, and that is our aparā-vidyā.
Prabhupāda: That is parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: That is real scientist.
Prabhupāda: That is parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: And don't now, please, say we are...
Prabhupāda: No, no, then don't refer to parā-vidyā[?].
Dr. Patel: We are trying to learn it.
Prabhupāda: No, but you defy Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Do you defy by trying to learn His mayādhyakṣeṇa sūyate prakṛtiḥ sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]?
Prabhupāda: No, now scientists say that "Now we are advanced. We don't require God." There is a book. Yes. "We don't require God. Now we shall adjust. We shall create... We shall create human being according to our necessity."
Dr. Patel: You are also scientist. You are on one side.
Prabhupāda: You know that?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. Right, sir.
Prabhupāda: They say that "We shall create human being according to our necessity."
Dr. Patel: It is not possible to... Can they create a leaf? Then let them create a human.
Prabhupāda: But that... Therefore we say rascals.
Dr. Patel: But then you don't bracket all of us, together. We are four or five of us here. We are next to you. We are none of those.
Prabhupāda: Then the same theory, that "This side of stool is dry. It is good." [laughter] Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because it going to be manure, manure the food.
Prabhupāda: "And the other side is moist; therefore it is bad."
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently.
Prabhupāda: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he remains in darkness.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Kṛṣṇa. He is doing work for Kṛṣṇa, and he cannot be...
Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone has to work for Kṛṣṇa. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He freely does it.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Kṛṣṇa. You cannot... Nobody can say...
Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't say; Kṛṣṇa says.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa says those people are rascal who does not believe in Him.
Prabhupāda: So anyway, that is the test. If you don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, you are rascal. That's all. We are simple child, and Kṛṣṇa has said that anyone who has not surrendered, he's a rascal. So we say, "Are you surrendered to Kṛṣṇa?" "No." "You are a rascal." [laughter] No. Our test is very simple.
Dr. Patel: And what do you mean by surrendering, sir?
Prabhupāda: He does not know anything but Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything...
Dr. Patel: Surrendering means by mental process if I do through my mind. This is my definition. My mental process in the...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Everything happening is... By Kṛṣṇa's grace he's surrendering to...
Prabhupāda: Not mental. No mental concoction. Factual. Factual.
Dr. Patel: That is factual. That everything is...
Prabhupāda: No, mental concoction is not factual.
Dr. Patel: Sir, but I am... You don't let me speak. I say that everything which is happening, a phenomena, is nothing but by the grace of God or by Kṛṣṇa's own order, and if that...
Prabhupāda: And you have no responsibility.
Dr. Patel: And that mental process, if you are working, is it a wrong mental process?
Prabhupāda: So here is a greatest wrong. No, no. If your patient comes, that "It is by Kṛṣṇa's wish I have become diseased," then where is your department? You don't...
Dr. Patel: But by Kṛṣṇa's grace I have become a doctor. Both the ways. Why see on one side?
Prabhupāda: Then say that. Why do you say one side?
Dr. Patel: Of course, everything is by Kṛṣṇa. The man is diseased by Kṛṣṇa, I am produced by Kṛṣṇa, I'll care by Kṛṣṇa this, that man, and that man dies, he will die by Kṛṣṇa's grace.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: Then that is Kṛṣṇa's grace.
Prabhupāda: Then that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That is what I have been saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: No, when in everything you see Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage. That is the highest stage.
sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti
sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti
[Cc. Madhya 8.274]
sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti
[Cc. Madhya 8.274]
When one sees, he sees this beach, but he does not see beach, he sees Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage.
Dr. Patel: I was meaning that, but unfortunately my expression was very poor.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be.
Dr. Patel: I am not student of literature like you.
Prabhupāda: Nothing can exist... Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. So everything is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Where is not Kṛṣṇa? But the Māyāvādī says, "Everything is Kṛṣṇa; therefore let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. "What is the use of going to the temple? Let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, therefore,
mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
Dr. Patel: Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ means no more important.
Dr. Patel: So I look a fool and they'll become wise, all of them, eh?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are wise.
Dr. Patel: They want that I should say something, and then you call me a rascal, and they take pleasure in it.
Gurudāsa: No, no. Para-duḥkhī.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I say all right...
Gurudāsa: Vaiṣṇava is not happy in someone else's misery.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...possible if you remain with the devotees. [Hindi] ...nondevotees' association. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido, bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Amongst devotees if you remain, then kṛṣṇa-kathā will be so pleasing, rasāyanāḥ kathā, rasāyana. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said,
tādera caraṇa-sebī-bhakta-sane bās
janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ
janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ
Dr. Patel: The sat-saṅga.
Prabhupāda: Yes, sat-saṅga.
Dr. Patel: Is satāṁ saṅga? It is sat-saṅga.
Dr. Patel: Even good literature saṅga is also sat-saṅga, is it not?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: So I am... In the morning I do your sat-saṅga, and afterwards I do the sat-saṅga of Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā. So it is a continuous sat-saṅga. So don't say I am not doing it. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not... I don't say that you are rascal.
Dr. Patel: No, about sat-saṅga.
Prabhupāda: Rather, I think myself rascal because... [laughter]
Dr. Patel: I say about sat-saṅga. Let us turn the issue.
Prabhupāda: I could not draw you in my temple.
Dr. Patel: You have drawn me lot, but still, you are dragging me by leg nowadays.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Into our hospital.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have hospitals...
Dr. Patel: I think I am not fit to be with you, so far I consider myself.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is.
Dr. Patel: I must correct myself and all my defects. Otherwise I would pollute you. [break] [laughter] I will become after sixty-five.
Prabhupāda: You are fifteen years late already. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: I must follow you. How much late you were? I will come after you. [break] ...you think, sir, that is more important than...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You must have the clothing in the internal side.
Prabhupāda: No, clothing is... Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī [Bg. 6.1]. It is not the clothing. Clothing is not... Sa yogī ca na niragnir na cākriyaḥ. [Hindi] And continually doing that mahā-pāpa. [break] ...narādhama.
Dr. Patel: Because they are māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It means they have no knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Māyā has taken away their vision, their sense of understanding, sense of... What do you call, sense of understanding or sense of...?
Prabhupāda: Sense of reality.
Dr. Patel: Reality. I was trying to say that word, sense of reality. Asuri bhūtiṁ avatāra. But today the whole world is practically asura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is a word declared to the asuras. You see? Therefore everyone is our enemy. Nobody likes us, because a declaration of war against the asuras. And we are fighting with some teeny soldiers, that's all. And they are very strong. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. [break] ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively, "Everyone is God." Maybe... [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: Now we must not... [Hindi with Prabhupāda]
Prabhupāda: That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Nārāyaṇa everywhere.
Dr. Patel: That is the highest statement of a Vaiṣṇava. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...therefore there is character. Just like there are some terpinoids[?] or some, so many. If little change is there, immediately the color changes, the flavor change. And who adjusted?
Dr. Patel: There they find Kṛṣṇa, sir.
Dr. Patel: That has been... I was already telling you, that three colors...
Prabhupāda: No, no. They said that "Now we are scientists. We do not require God." Yes.
Dr. Patel: They are putting, I mean... The putting of a small leaf in a hydrocarbon... You can't put it from that. To that extent we have come in biochemistry or chemistry.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they should admit who has adjusted it. Then who has adjusted like this, so that the color, the flavor, everything is maintained standard? That is real scientist.
Dr. Patel: Svabhāva hetu pravar.[?]
Prabhupāda: Yes. Svabhāva means prakṛti. So mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛti [Bg. 9.10].
Dr. Patel: So under His guidance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So matter cannot work. Yasyājñayā... There is a verse in the Brahma-saṁhitā, sṛṣṭi-sthiti.... Svabhāva is Durgā. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā [Bs. 5.44]. By His desire.
Dr. Patel: No, sir, He desired and said, "Let Me be many," and He became many. So by desire the whole cosmos has come into existence. So by desire the colors change.
Prabhupāda: Even there... Coconut trees, there are varieties. One tree is standing like this; one is standing like this. Varieties.
Dr. Patel: But then one thing, eko bahū... Everything that is..., the Vaiṣṇava fulfillment.
Prabhupāda: No, Vaiṣṇava accepts the varieties.
Dr. Patel: He accept the variety but he sees in Him everywhere.
Prabhupāda: No. Variety is everywhere. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]