Dr. Patel: ...saṅkalpa.
Prabhupāda: When I was a child my father gave me one air(red?) gun. And then I was not more than eight years. Then, after getting one, I said, "I must have another one." "Eh?" Then father said, "Why another one? You have got already one." So I said, "No, I have got two hands. I must have two guns." Then my father, "No, you are naughty. I am not going..." Then I made so much agitation, he was obliged to give me two guns. [laughter] I was very pet child of my father, and very pet son-in-law also. And I am very pet guru also. [laughter] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [aside:] Thank you. What is this?
Dr. Patel: This is Hanumān-jayantī today.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today is also the rāsa-yātrā of Balarāmajī.
Prabhupāda: Oh, rāsa-yātrā. Oh. So you have some festival?
Dr. Patel: Yes, they have got the festival in the Rāma-mandira.
Girirāja: We're having a bigger festival in our mandira.
Dr. Patel: Good.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also it is the appearance day of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī and Vaṁśī-vadana Gosvāmī.
Prabhupāda: How many stories still remain?
Saurabha: Three. Three on top. The towers.
Viśāla: Prabhupāda ki jaya!
Prabhupāda: How are you?
Viśāla: Fine, thank you.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming?
Viśāla: From Rome and Paris.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Viśāla: Bhagavān took real good care of us.
Prabhupāda: Where is your wife?
Viśāla: She is here, Your Divine Grace.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. He is very good boy. [break] ...that these people are coming for Indian culture, and government is restricting, "Don't come here. Don't come here." They are so degraded.
Dr. Patel: They are frightened of the American CIDs.
Prabhupāda: They may frighten. A rascal may be frightened.
Dr. Patel: The Americans are all rascals, they say.
Prabhupāda: That is not the cause.
Indian: What is the cause?
Dr. Patel: Then what is the cause? No, what is the cause?
Indian: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Government... [Hindi] They have admitted in the Parliament.
Dr. Patel: They are frightened in the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I think they are very slow to act.
Prabhupāda: No, the real is that all rogues are in the government.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that is the right thing. Not only rogues, but they are...
Prabhupāda: So why don't you, if you are actually serious, why don't you make propaganda in the country that "Please do not give vote to the rogues"? Don't mention any party. "If you want to be happy, then don't give vote to the rogues." And who is a rogue? The illicit-sex hunters, the intoxicants and the meat-eaters and the gamblers. These are rogues.
Dr. Patel: They are all there in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't mention any. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So it is impartial. And actually, if they test that "Whether this man I am voting, he is free from all these sinful activities?" then, you see, the whole face of the Indian government will change.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I may tell you, the adult franchise is meant for the educated, cultured, and high people.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't name that educated, cultured. You simply say that "You vote for this person."
Dr. Patel: People vote for five-rupee notes. They don't vote anything else.
Prabhupāda: Then they will suffer. Then don't..., don't complain. Don't complain.
Dr. Patel: I was a political worker myself and a member of the ruling party and a member of the Assembly. I know how they collect votes.
Prabhupāda: If you... For five rupees if you sacrifice your sacred right, then how can you expect good government?
Dr. Patel: But they never, I mean, they never really desired to have these rights. They should be disenfranchised, those who will not understand their responsibility towards their country.
Prabhupāda: So at least you can make some propaganda that "Don't give votes to these persons." Don't name any. Then he will be envious. No.
Dr. Patel: You will be in the jail.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind going to the...
Prabhupāda: No, if you preach these moral principles, nobody will object. Nobody will object.
Dr. Patel: They are shamming themselves as big moralist. They go to temples and what not and what not and what not. And then they...
Prabhupāda: But still in India they will never accept a drunkard as moralist. Still.
Dr. Patel: Sir, all of them are drunkards, who are there.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say.
Dr. Patel: Majority, sir.
Prabhupāda: Mass of people, they are not drunkard.
Dr. Patel: Not mass. I mean those people who are in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: They? They are not majority. Therefore we have to reform.
Dr. Patel: Only God will reform them by giving them... They should be chastised.
Prabhupāda: They are being chastised, but they are so fool, they cannot understand they are being chastised. Just like a dog is being chastised. He cannot have eating, eatables, whole day and night, eating stool. Somebody's stoning, somebody's sticking, and still, he is very jubilant = "Gow, gow, gow, gow. I am very happy." [laughter] This is going on. [laughs] So this dog's association, dog society, they are suffering in every step; still, they are thinking, "We are making progress." That's all. Dog civilization. Hog civilization, dog civilization. This is not civilization. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Dog civilization.
Dr. Patel: Sir, this civilization is degrading because of the cinemas and things. The mothers are the really the...
Prabhupāda: And you do not know. Cinema is not cause. Cause is godlessness.
Dr. Patel: But because the godlessness starts from there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Who are the ideals of these women? The cinema actresses. Who were the ideals of our mothers? Sāvitrī and Sītā.
Prabhupāda: There are so many, so many.
Dr. Patel: That is very important. This is very important, sir.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are many cinemas in America...
Indian: [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: I mean, one percent. But many cinemas are there, bedroom stories. I have not seen. The people say so.
Prabhupāda: You see, when a man is diseased there are many symptoms of ailments. You cannot say... You are a physician. You know. You cannot say, "This is the cause of the disease." It is... Real, one disease is there, and there are so many ailments. So you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: You mean the cause of the cause of the cause is godlessness.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Symptoms are there.
Dr. Patel: Cause of the cause of the cause.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These are only outward...
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are... In logic there are two causes = immediate cause and remote cause. So remote cause is taken into consideration.
Dr. Patel: The important cause is the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: That [indistinct] is interested for gurukula.
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why not construct a big building for gurukula here? The students will be trained up to come here and sporting, having nice bath and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and build up their character. And in Bombay you will get many children, because there are so many rich men, they are not so much concerned to make their children technologist. If they get good education and character, they will give. Technologists they can purchase. Birla, they are not going to be technologist. They purchase technologist. I have seen in many respectable Marwari house, they don't send their children to school. They don't send.
Dr. Patel: After matriculation they go to the office.
Prabhupāda: No matriculation. They engage good paṇḍitas, good teachers, and teach them at home, and as soon as they are able to read and write and see accounts, immediately engage in the business. They know that "We can purchase technologist. Why shall I waste time for so-called education, Ph.D., D.A.C.?" You have seen that Ph.D. in our Vṛndāvana? Useless. So many Ph.D.'s are useless. Cannot earn their livelihood. I have seen. So what is the use? Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Because one has become... I have seen one Ph.D. chemist in Allahabad. He could not get any job. Then he was manufacturing soap at home and taking it in cycle and going to the market just like ordinary coolie. These so-called educationists, unless they get a good job, they are useless, street dog. Useless. They cannot earn even livelihood. Therefore śāstra says, "Don't try for these things, to increase your economic position. This is already destined. You cannot increase or decrease. Whatever you are destined, you must get it. Try to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
kālena sarvatra gabhīra
[SB 1.5.18]
You'll get. As you get miserable condition of life---you don't like it, but it comes---similarly, happy condition will also come according to your destiny. Why you are wasting time for this? This is the decision of the śāstra. You cannot change your destiny. If you have to be..., have to work like a coolie, even after becoming Ph.D., you'll have to work like a coolie. You cannot change it. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] Jaya. This is... Therefore formerly any man was satisfied in any position. They were not trying to develop economic condition, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. She is your daughter?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
kālena sarvatra gabhīra raṁhasā
[SB 1.5.18]
[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. [Hindi] Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Dr. Patel: He is such a man. He has all the characteristics of a sannyāsī in the home. He is a multimillionaire's son, but absolutely untouched by wealth, and very fine man, extremely fine.
Prabhupāda: If our gurukula children comes here they can have very good sporting. And this idea I have given you?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Remain healthy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Twice a day.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Twice a day can come, take bath and enjoy sporting life and then chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take good prasādam. That's all. Why they should waste their time in technology to become a coolie?
Girirāja: Actually, there was once a case. A newspaper once wrote that Henry Ford was ignorant. So Henry Ford filed a case against the newspaper. So in the hearing, the defense asked so many questions about science and history to Henry Ford. So Henry Ford said to the judge that "In my office I have a panel of buttons, and I can press any button and someone will come running to answer any of these questions. So am I ignorant?" [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Dr. Patel: When Mr. Ford comes willing, welcome. Is he coming back again?
Prabhupāda: No, there are many. There are many. Now, you see, near Delhi there is Modinagar. That Mr. Modi was not very educated man, but how he has developed?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He is employing something like fifty thousand people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [Hindi] Mr. Modi near Delhi.
Dr. Patel: Modinagarawala.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is employing fifty thousand people, without any education.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a very big program in Modinagar.
Prabhupāda: His wife received us very nicely.
Dr. Patel: Very cultured people. My cousin's daughter is married to his nephew, Modinagarawala. He's a big architect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, Modi, he...
Dr. Patel: This Modi, is, I mean, an industrialist, but his nephew, an architect. My niece was studying in London, and she married with him in England. Intercommunal marriage.
Abhirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Abhirāma: I have seen in Miami Beach that one man was found dead in his apartment, and he was living poverty-stricken. His whole place was full of rats and cockroaches. When they investigated his file they found that he had eight million dollars in the bank and in stocks. But all of his friends said he couldn't spend one penny his whole life, because he was too cheap. So even though he was a rich man, actually he was a poor man.
Dr. Patel: But, sir, there are some beggars here in Bombay who have got one and two lakh rupees. You have read the railway[?] story about couple of beggars. They rounded up, and they had money.
Prabhupāda: No, I am also a beggar. I am also beggar.
Dr. Patel: That is not... You are a rich beggar.
Prabhupāda: Millions of dollars.
Dr. Patel: Sannyāsīs don't touch money.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I don't touch money. They pass check. [laughter] I simply sign check. All these accounts in Bombay, they are being managed by them. I do not touch even. Lakhs and lakhs of rupees they are spending.
Dr. Patel: Begging is prohibited, so they rounded up the beggars sometime back.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I tell him this way = just give books. Transcendental fraud, that we give, say, fifty rupees' worth book, and we draw 2222. Buddhir yasya balaṁ tasya nirbuddhes tu balaṁ kuto [Hitopadeśa]. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. You know that story? Eh? You know that story, buddhir yasya balaṁ tasya?
Dr. Patel: "The man who has got the buddhi is a strong man."
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Paśya siṁho madonmataḥ śaśaḥ kena nipatitaḥ. This is Hitopadeśa story. You know this?
Dr. Patel: No, I don't know this.
Prabhupāda: There was a lion in the forest, and he was disturbing all the animals. So there was a peace conference = "Sir, you don't disturb every one of us. We shall come."
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Eka, eka.... [Hindi] "We shall come automatically." So one day it was the turn of a rabbit. So he was a little late, so the lion, "Why you are late? My time is over." "Yes, sir, another lion in the way, he wanted to eat me. So I said, 'No, you cannot eat me. I will be eaten by such and such Mr. Lion.' " So he became very..., "Who is that?" "Yes, come on. I will show you." So he got him near a well, and he said that "Here is the lion." So immediately, [growls] "Aww!" [laughter] And there was sound, "Aww!" Then he saw the photo, I mean, the reflection, and immediately jumped over.
buddhir yasya balaṁ tasya
nirbuddhes tu kuto balaṁ
paśya siṁho madonmataḥ
śaśaḥ kena nipatitaḥ
A śaśa, the rabbit, killed a big lion by intelligence. The Aesop's Fable was imitated from this Hitopadeśa.
Dr. Patel: Yes, all are translated more or less.
Prabhupāda: The Hitopadeśa was written by Viṣṇu-śarmā. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...Upaniṣad, in sixth or seventh chapter, he says that even bala is..., I mean buddhi is not stronger than bala. He described like that. [Hindi] Strong man is like that, they have described. That is what buddhi-bala. That is there in Chāndogya Upaniṣad. It was just sort of a story
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Concerning the gurukula system, after a child attains a certain age...
Prabhupāda: No age. As soon as he is able to walk, he can be admitted. What is the wrong there? If he comes to the sea and takes bath and jumps, it doesn't require any age. Any four-year, five-year-old child can do that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When he becomes, say, twenty years old, though, when he becomes older...
Prabhupāda: First of all begin. Then we shall think of old. But... At least when he is older, he will not become a nonsense. That... We want to save him from becoming a nonsense. That is our duty. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ [SB 7.12.1]. When the brahmacārī is residing in gurukula, he must be trained up how to control senses. That is the first education. People are spoiled because they are not trained up to become controller. That is the defect of the modern age. And when one is unable to control senses, he will do all nonsense.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana the gurukula children went to the Yamunā for two days. Even though it was a forty-five-minute walk one way, they enjoyed it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they'll enjoy.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It was a very nice procession.
Prabhupāda: Very good health.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're doing it every day now.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...intelligence and kṣatriya's executive power and vaiśya's productive capacity and śūdra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect.
Dr. Patel: How this social order can be generated in India?
Prabhupāda: [to passerby:] Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Indian man: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: The kṣatriya's duty is that everyone is religious. It doesn't matter whether he follows Muslim or... That is kṣatriya's duty, not that to discriminate, "The Hindu religion is better than the Muslim religion. Muslim..." That is not the way. If everyone is religious, it doesn't matter whether he is Hindu...
Dr. Patel: No religious Muslim would have ever done harm to Hindus.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: These are also ruled, these mullahs.
Prabhupāda: Therefore one... The government's duty is to see that everyone is actually religious and moral. It doesn't matter if he follows some type of religion. [break] ...to discriminate that "Hindu religion is good, Muslim religion is..." Then you cannot act as king.
Dr. Patel: All religion are of God.
Indian man: God, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmaṁ tu...
Dr. Patel: I have not been able to find out any difference between the Bhāgavata-dharma and the Christianity. I have studied so thoroughly both of them. Actually Jesus Christ has taught nothing but Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. Still, the Christians, I mean, when they came here, these Portuguese, converted these people to Christians. They are fanatics. They are not religious people.
Prabhupāda: No, they are doing... They are doing in their own countries. In France, in France the Roman Catholics and the Protestants, they are fighting and cutting each other's head. And still going on, it is. This is fanaticism.
Indian man: Political fanaticism.
Prabhupāda: [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: Yes, and said Sītā was a prostitute. I don't know... And still, the government could, I mean, support them. It's too much of a joke.
Prabhupāda: But these... You cannot... Even on religious principle or so-called religion, you cannot make equality. The rogues will always remain, either Hindu, Muslim.
Dr. Patel: You know that Naikar last year. [break] Secular means you respect all religions. That is the definition of secularism. They mean secularism means no religion. They are fools. You can call them rascals.
Prabhupāda: Because we rascals vote them.
Dr. Patel: No, sir. What man, rascals, vote them? It is the hutment fellows who bring them, because they are in majority. I have never been elect to, I mean my candidate. Every time my vote goes useless.
Prabhupāda: That means you or your brother votes, somebody is elected. People are degenerated; therefore they do not know whom to vote.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are?
Prabhupāda: Degenerated. They do not...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Degenerated.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they do not know.
Dr. Patel: They vote five-rupees notes.
Prabhupāda: So that is degeneration. For five-rupee notes he is giving his valuable vote to anybody. That is degeneration.
Dr. Patel: That is why we really... We are not for this type of Western type of democracy. We should have Rāma-rājya, a benevolent dictatorship of a good king, a religious king like Rāma. That should be the ideal condition for this country. This way, sir.
Prabhupāda: Our buses are bigger than this, I think. Eh?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Dr. Patel: This is a Matadar Campo[?], no? This is a Matadar Campo[?].
Indian man: [Hindi] [break]
Devotee (2): ...the Deities with Acyutānanda Swami. He's going to travel down South India as soon as he's finished...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very nice. Better Gaura-Nitāi. Gaura-Nitāi is better.
Devotee (2): But Acyutānanda was explaining that people in South India don't accept Gaura-Nitāi so much as Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. [kīrtana] [end]