Devotee: [announces:] Morning walk March 8th, [indistinct] 1976.
Madhudviṣa: ...gave one flower to the prime minister of Australia.
Madhudviṣa: He gave a donation.
Akṣayānanda: How much did he give?
Madhudviṣa: I don't know how much he gave, but he gave a donation.
Akṣayānanda: Did he get a book?
Madhudviṣa: Yes, she gave him our magazine.
Devotee (1): [indistinct]
Madhudviṣa: There was no security.
Madhudviṣa: There was no security around him. He just was standing there on the sidewalk out in front of one hotel after this luncheon.
Madhudviṣa: And she just walked up to him and "Oh, this is a flower for you," pinned it on his lapel.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So he had no personal guard?
Madhudviṣa: He had some guard, but it was not very strict security, there was no... It's not like in America, where the president is very..., his life is very jeopardized all the time.
Prabhupāda: It is not their fault. The Western civilization is like that. Now we have to make a thorough change. The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted, they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common man?
Madhudviṣa: I was reading in the paper the other day how the Catholic church has drastically declined in the last ten years.
Prabhupāda: They must decline.
Madhudviṣa: They are losing one billion dollars a year in donations because they cannot...
Prabhupāda: They have to starve; not a single paisa donation. By law should be prohibited. No donation should be allowed.
Pañcadraviḍa: They used to be very strong. Everybody had to give ten percent of their wages.
Madhudviṣa: We can see just..., in our Society that we have bought so many Catholic properties...
Madhudviṣa: ...already, for our temples. In Toronto, I think, we got a Catholic church, and Montreal and Australia also, that was Catholic property. They are selling all their property off because they cannot afford to maintain.
Pañcadraviḍa: Still in South America the people are Catholic and pious...
Prabhupāda: We wanted to purchase that convent...
Prabhupāda: How dilapidated.
Madhudviṣa: How envious they were. We wanted to purchase the convent, and they said they would sell us only if they could tear down the church. They wouldn't sell it to us unless they could tear down the church.
Passers-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Madhudviṣa: It would have been a big defeat if they had sold us that church and we moved in. [break]
Devotee (1): ...somewhere the Pope is coming to the United States. They have taken eight million Catholics in Philadelphia. Just before the time of our Rathayātrā, I think [indistinct].
Pañcadraviḍa: When they took Rādhā-Dāmodara down to Mexico, all the Catholics thought it was Virgin Mary and Jesus, and they all came to offer their obeisances. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Which way I shall go? This way?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]
Lokanātha: Last time there was a big crowd to hear you, Prabhupāda---the Christians.
Lokanātha: And you mentioned they were clapping for a long, long time after hearing you speak.
Prabhupāda: [laughing] Not long, long time, but... Madhudviṣa, you remember that Catholic? They appreciated.
Madhudviṣa: Yes, they asked you about St. Francis, about him chanting to the dogs and the trees and the birds. And you said, "That is actual God-realization, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]."
Prabhupāda: Very much appreciated by them. And when they asked about Christ, and "He's our guru."
Madhudviṣa: You started your main lecture off there, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." And then you went on to explain about the holy name.
Prabhupāda: Hmm, [indistinct] are here. Why it is? Some wood. [break] ...grow food grains, simple living.
Devotee (1): The house is there, under the trees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [aside:] You have got this card.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they would call this primitive.
Devotee (1): Call it...?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Primitive.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization, that is the... The difficulty is they have no education about human civilization. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are simply captivated by the external energy, bodily conception of life. They do not know what is the aim of life. This is Western civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. This is not Western; this is the demonic civilization. They do not know what is the aim of life. And, in the material atmosphere, they're not happy, they're failing always, missing the real point.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people who live in the cities think that the farmers work so hard.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people who are living in the cities...
Prabhupāda: And these rascals rise early in the morning and start their car to go to the office, five hours coming and going, and eight hours working there...
Lokanātha: Again in the evening they have to drive back. [break]
Pañcadraviḍa: In San Francisco I saw that these big men, they were taking so many pep pills during the day to do their work, and in the evening they had to take tranquilizers to go to sleep.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen so, so many advertisements. One has to take at least five to six types of.
Pañcadraviḍa: No peace of mind.
Madhudviṣa: In this way the Kali-yuga will progress, and they'll eat less and less food and take more pills, and they will think it is advancement.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.
Madhudviṣa: Housewives think like that already. They take some pills, and they become very slim, and they don't have to eat so much. They just smoke cigarettes and drink coffee and take pills. And they're saving money, they think. They don't have to buy so much food, and they're able to remain slim and trim. So in Kali-yuga, as the food supply runs out, so people won't notice.
Lokanātha: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says they will be starving.
Lokanātha: As Kali-yuga advances, they're mentioning one time, there will be durbhikṣā, means not even bhikṣā will be given to sādhus.
Prabhupāda: Yes, not even bhikṣā will be available. I don't think bhikṣā is available in Western countries, eh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Pañcadraviḍa: Bhikṣā? Meaning begging for food? No, they will arrest you. [Prabhupāda chuckles]
Pañcadraviḍa: Yes, begging is against the law. [break]
Madhudviṣa: Begging alms is very elevated. In Western countries, it is a crime. It's written, "Begging alms." That's one crime that they charge the devotees on sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Electricity is coming? Yes?
Lokanātha: Yes, these poles are meant for that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I doubt, though, if these people can afford.
Prabhupāda: The government can. [break]
Pañcadraviḍa: When we go to beg rice or something, like we were doing for a food program, all the people slam the door in your face. [break]
Pañcadraviḍa: ...you went to America, what was your idea of what would be your program when you got there?
Prabhupāda: This idea = I shall speak to don't eat meat, and they'll immediately kick me out. [laughter] [laughs] That was my program. And I was going to say that "Don't eat meat. No illicit sex," and immediately they will kick me out. "All right." I never thought that you would accept it. That is the idea of my poetry. That is sung, no? You have got that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And I was asking Kṛṣṇa, "I do not know why You have brought me here. As soon as I will say these things, they will kick me out. So what is Your program, I do not know." [chuckles]
Akṣayānanda: Everybody knows in their heart that actually these things are wrong.
Lokanātha: You are so expert. For one year you did not mention those rules and regulations, I heard.
Prabhupāda: No, I simply said, "Come and join and chant."
Lokanātha: And when they developed higher taste, then you said, "Now no more meat-eating." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...simply man looks after the animals, that he's strong and happy, they'll get food grains, the cooperation, and both of them happy. But they're not looking to that. They are trying to sell the grains and get more money, and purchase wine and enjoy. And when the animal is unable to work, send him to the slaughterhouse and get money. And for these sinful activities they are suffering.
Hari-śauri: Their idea is just to exploit.
Prabhupāda: Hah, yes. Everyone is trying to get more, and nature's order is that you take only to maintain your body and soul together. That's all. If you take more, then you are a thief; you'll be punished by the laws of nature. This is going on. Laws of nature are so fine that by material activities you'll never be satisfied, and at the time of death, he'll lament that "I could not satisfy my desires. Then let me take..." "All right, take another body. Satisfy." This is nature's punishment. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Simple thing. We desire, and nature will give you another body. Māyā-yantrārūḍhāni [Bg. 18.61]. He'll give you, "Ride on this car, you wanted, on this body." And this... This is creation of māyā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... Kṛṣṇa is there, orders māyā, "He wants to enjoy life. Give him this body." "Come on, here is a hog's body; eat nicely stool. Come on." He did not like to eat prasādam. He wanted something rubbish. "All right, come here. Take this stool." These things are going automatically. The same way, as you infect some disease, immediately the disease is there. You haven't got to manufacture the disease. Because you have infected yourself with the disease germ, "Take this disease." Therefore it is warned, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], "Don't desire anything except Kṛṣṇa's service." Then you are immune. Otherwise you have to take birth. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they take the Absolute Truth void, so they have no good desires; again they come to material desires.
Lokanātha: They want to be desireless.
Lokanātha: They're trying to be desireless.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Madhudviṣa: If the Māyāvādīs don't believe in the difference between the soul and the Supersoul, then how can they... What is their explanation of reincarnation?
Madhudviṣa: What is their understanding of reincarnation?
Prabhupāda: They say that this is not incarnation, it is māyā. Just like the sky is covered in a pot, and as soon as the pot breaks, the sky mixes with the big sky. That's all. That is their theory.
Madhudviṣa: So therefore they say God is covered.
Prabhupāda: Not God. You are covered.
Pañcadraviḍa: But you are God, they say.
Prabhupāda: So you are God, actually you are God, but you are covered by this body. So as soon as the body is finished, you mix with. Just like you take one pot and you take water. The water is there, but if you break this pot, the water comes and mixes with it.
Pañcadraviḍa: Then what is their reason for not becoming the biggest rascal? Why not become the biggest rascal? The pot's going to break anyway. What difference does it make?
Pañcadraviḍa: Why not become a big rascal and enjoy? The pot's going to break anyway.
Madhudviṣa: Because the Māyāvādīs, they also perform some austerity and tapasya.
Prabhupāda: Just to break the pot. That is their tempta..., instinct.
Madhudviṣa: But what is the breaking of the pot?
Lokanātha: The pot doesn't refer to the body but the illusion. They want to get rid of not the body but the illusion.
Prabhupāda: No, illusion in this sense, that I am covered by the pot. It will break or I shall break, and when it is broken then there is no more pot; I become one with the sky.
Madhudviṣa: So why should you endeavor for it? It's going to happen anyway.
Prabhupāda: To break it as soon as possible. [laughter]
Pañcadraviḍa: That doesn't make any sense. "Crackpot philosophy."
Madhudviṣa: If there's no individuality, I can't understand how can there be any desire for endeavor.
Prabhupāda: No, there is individuality, but these people do not understand it, because... In the Bhagavad-gītā, acchedyam. It is not that part is taken. The accedya. Because spirit cannot be cut into pieces, but while it is in piece, either you take it in part or something else, that is eternal. It is not that by the māyā we have become piece.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not māyā. It is piece. All right, sanātana, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7], eternally that piece.
Lokanātha: They did not take that to mean the constitutional position of the living entity.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not know. Therefore they are less intelligent. They are individual, but artificially they are thinking, "I shall become one."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The karmīs may argue that to become desireless is against the natural order. Because we see that right from the beginning of our life we're desiring so many things.
Prabhupāda: Desireless. When he will desire less, you convince. They're always desiring.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Then where is desireless?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we're saying anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11].
Prabhupāda: Anya, anya means anyathā. You are servant. You should always desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your natural. And if you don't want to serve, that is anyathā. Anyābhilāṣa. That is anyābhilāṣa. Anya means "other"; abhilāṣa means "desire." So everyone has got desire, but that desire should be natural, according to position. But if you desire something else, nonsense, then you suffer. That... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. You are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, so you desire only how to serve Him. Why you are desiring otherwise? They will suffer. We are desiring, "I shall become God," "I shall become one with God," "I shall become this, I shall become..." So many hundreds and thousands. So that you have to stop. Because you are servant, you should desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your natural. Eh? Just like in your country the women, they are thinking of equal rights. Eh? And how you can equal rights? You have to become pregnant. So you become pregnant and take care of the child; that is your duty. In India still, you'll find they are happy. And now they are, "No, we shall be equal with the men." And how you'll stop your pregnancy? And that they do not think. So they're thinking that "We shall not be pregnant, and if we become pregnant we shall kill, and we shall have equal rights with the men." This is going on.
Madhudviṣa: They say they may become pregnant and have children, but the men should take care of the children, equally.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why you should take? You are meant for taking... The child does not go to the father for being taken care. It goes to the mother. Even animals. There are so many chicken, hens, they go after the mother.
Hari-śauri: They get milk from the mother, not from the father.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How to stop it?
Lokanātha: How could father feed even the child?
Prabhupāda: Just see, in our..., there are so many husbandless girls, and the children have not gone with the husbands, to the man. They are after the mother. This is natural. How you'll have equal rights? They cannot. At this your heart will cry, "Oh, I have left my children. I am unhappy." That is... Just like our Hari-śauri's grandmother's advice to his mother to kill him. He said. And she refused. This is natural inclination. How [indistinct]. Artificially they are thinking like that, violating nature's law. Therefore they must suffer. As soon as you break, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. These rascals, on account of being misled by misconception of life, ahaṅkāra, false ahaṅkāra, kartāham, "I can do everything." Any little pinch of nature's law, if you break, you'll suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot escape. But still they're thinking, "We are independent." That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā: by false prestige, by false identification. He is [indistinct], and he's thinking so many nonsense. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Everything will be explained in Bhagavad-gītā. So try to explain. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, yāre dekha, tāre kaha, 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128].' Bās, finished, "You become a guru." The trouble[?] is there. You haven't got to manufacture your ideas. Just like I'm quoting from Kṛṣṇa's preaching.
Lokanātha: They usually take objection when we preach. They say, "Have you seen God or Kṛṣṇa?" We haven't seen God, how could we speak about God? Sometimes they take objection.
Prabhupāda: Very good. You have not seen your grandfather; why do you take his will, to inherit his money? You have not seen your grandfather. You rascal, you are very much anxious to take his money, according to his will. What is the answer? You have not seen your grandfather, so why you take his will? Eh? What he will answer? Rascal, while taking money = "I will take my grandfather's will." Just see. You have to learn how to capture the rascals. [break]
Jayādvaita: ...living here for nine years, but he doesn't know who God is.
Prabhupāda: This is direction?
Passer-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya, jaya. This is the difference = he is living here nine years, he does not... And here, cultivator, he knows how to offer obeisances. Where he is living?
Jayādvaita: I'm not sure exactly. I met him on Gopīnath Bazaar. He's living with some gentleman. He said that he came to Vṛndāvana nine years ago, and he met this gentleman and took up studying with him. And he's reading all Vedic books---Atharva Veda, Yajur Veda, like that---but he doesn't know...
Prabhupāda: What is God.
Jayādvaita: ...what is God.
Madhudviṣa: Has he seen our books?
Prabhupāda: How he is wasting his time.
Lokanātha: Vedeṣu durlābhaṁ.
Prabhupāda: Adurlabham ātma-bhaktau [Bs. 5.33]. If he would have approached a devotee, he'd have known this long ago. That man must be Māyāvādī, with whom he is associating.
Pañcadraviḍa: They cannot give anything.
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī-bhāṣya sunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. Finished. His spiritual progress is finished if he associates with a Māyāvādī.
Madhudviṣa: It says in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, even if we look upon the face of a pāṣaṇḍī, we should jump in the river with all our clothes on to become immediately purified, what to speak of giving any aural reception to them. But then again we see that Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu listened, you know, attentively for so many hours to Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and also Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. How is it can we understand...?
Prabhupāda: Just to see how the animal is jumping. [to passers-by:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Passer-by: Rādhe śyāma.
Prabhupāda: Jaya, jaya. [chuckles] Just like a fish is given freedom, even if he's caught up by the trap. It is like that.
Madhudviṣa: So Lord Caitanya had him on the line all the time.
Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya was waiting, "Let the rascal go on speaking. How long he can speak?" [laughs] "I'll capture him."
Hari-śauri: He just waited till he dried up.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. He's foolish. He knows that he has got some limited stock; it will be finished very soon, so "Let him finish, then I shall capture him." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's policy.
Madhudviṣa: But should we take that example, or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Madhudviṣa: We can also listen to the Māyāvādīs and then defeat them like that, with their own logic?
Prabhupāda: If you are so qualified like Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Madhudviṣa: [laughs] Otherwise we should...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise you will be captured.
Madhudviṣa: Otherwise we shouldn't listen. At all.
Jayādvaita: In America that's called giving someone enough rope to hang himself.
Pañcadraviḍa: In South India, when we were down there, we had to do that. We listened to them first and then took their money.
Madhudviṣa: But we also should defeat them.
Pañcadraviḍa: Taking their money is defeating them.
Madhudviṣa: No, besides taking their money. We should [indistinct] them.
Lokanātha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is the position of vrajavāsīs, those who are living in Vṛndāvana now? What happens to them next life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply by living, if they do not commit any sinful, they'll go back to home. Simply by living, without committing any sinful activities. Always remember Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa's land, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto [Bg. 18.65]. That will deliver them.
Madhudviṣa: They don't need a spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is always needed. Chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā [Prema-bhakti-candrikā]. Without abiding by the orders of spiritual master and serving him, nobody can be. Otherwise rascal. He has accepted one rascal spiritual master, and he cannot understand what is God, nine years, because he did not accept spiritual master.
Hari-śauri: So all these local vrajavāsīs, they all accept... They have family guru or...
Prabhupāda: No, vrajavāsīs, they are... Generally, naturally, they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise why is this illiterate farmer, he is offering? This is natural.
Pañcadraviḍa: But he has no spiritual master.
Pañcadraviḍa: He has a spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: No, no, he has a spiritual master, yes. And even without spiritual master, they have already elevated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Pañcadraviḍa: So they will go back home?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because spiritual master is within, caitya-guru.
Lokanātha: You said one time Kṛṣṇa is their spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kṛṣṇa-guru-kṛpā. [end]