Mahāṁsa: They say there are many old temples which need renovation, so they will spend the money for the renovation of old temples but not construct new temples.
Prabhupāda: That means they don't want expansion.
Prabhupāda: So what kind of committee?
Mahāṁsa: But that also is a farce, because they spent thirteen lakhs of rupees for construction of a temple in New York.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York.
Prabhupāda: So New York, we have got so many temples. Let them here.
Mahāṁsa: They know. Anna Rao, who is chairman... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...temples [indistinct] foreign countries, then let them [indistinct]. We shall... How?
Mahāṁsa: They are very political. They want to take charge of everything that they give money for.
Mahāṁsa: They want to take charge of everything that they give money for. Just like these temples which they have in New York, they will be in charge of them. [break] They are the pūjārīs and things...
Prabhupāda: That means they are constructing their own temple.
Acyutānanda: That will be a Gaṇeśa temple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why Gaṇeśa temple?
Mahāṁsa: Gaṇeśa and other deities also.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We know the people in charge of it. We went there for a program.
Prabhupāda: [chuckles] That means all these foolish ideas.
Mahāṁsa: Actually, Prabhupāda, it is only for... They say it will ultimately be for the Hindu community there, for performing their marriages...
Prabhupāda: So who, Hindu, will go?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have been to this Gaṇeśa temple. We went there for a program once. It's such a small piece of land in Queens. No one's going to go there. And when we were there...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in Queens?
Harikeśa: [laughs] In Flushing.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...we distributed about twenty of your big books in half an hour there, your Bhagavad-gītās.
Prabhupāda: In New York?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In that Gaṇeśa temple. I've gone there with Yadubara and Viśākhā once.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They already built it?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they have a temporary one, but they're building a... They've been building it for five years. They just have a layout of all...
Prabhupāda: What is their cult, this Tirupati committee?
Acyutānanda: Hinduism. Hinduism. Very... No definition of that term now, Hinduism. Just like if we want to get on the radio, they'll say, "Well, there are so many minor sects. So if we give time for one, then everybody will want." But then, when we want some other aid, they say, "No, you're a majority group. We have to help the minority groups." So sometimes we are a minor sect and sometimes we are a majority.
Prabhupāda: [laughs] All fools, rascals, mūḍhas. [break] The Tirupati is a Vaiṣṇava temple, so they should encourage... Vaiṣṇavism means real religion. All other, bogus, cheating religions. That is... Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra [SB 1.1.2]. Kaitava means cheating. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that. What is this land?
Indian man (1): The police superintendent's house.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Police superintendent. They are using the Deity's money, Prabhupāda, to maintain the universities. And in the universities they are teaching birth control and so many other things.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you take them into court?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them to court.
Yaśodānandana: It's like fighting against the government.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the court.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the court.
Prabhupāda: "They are the court" means?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say, the same persons are the court. They're all one clique.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The court has legalized abortion, for example, now.
Harikeśa: In India?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. In America. In India also the government's encouraging.
Acyutānanda: In India it's encouraged. They get a reward.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The government pays.
Yaśodānandana: They give a radio.
Acyutānanda: They'll give you a prize, and the person who brings someone, he will get twenty-five rupees. And the doctor, after a month he gets a bonus.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now the government is thinking of having a policy by which if a person has more than two children he will not be promoted, he will not get raises---to discourage.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew. Wow.
Yaśodānandana: And yet the population is increasing.
Acyutānanda: The Muhammadan community has refused, and Christian. So they feel...
Prabhupāda: So why not Hindus?
Acyutānanda: Hindus are doing. So they feel in a few generations the Muhammadan, Christian community will outnumber the Hindu.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that their plan?
Acyutānanda: Yes. Even to the point that Puri Shankaracarya printed a book how everyone should have five children; all Hindus should have as many children as they want. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...authorities, do they believe in Bhagavad-gītā? Huh?
Indian man (1): Yes. Every day there you'll find Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Then why they are going against Bhagavad-gītā?
Indian man (1): That I don't know. Every day they are preaching...
Prabhupāda: Ask them that "What is the meaning of your reading Bhagavad-gītā daily if you go against it?"
Indian man (1): But they are not going, but the preachers who comes there, they are doing it.
Prabhupāda: What they are doing?
Acyutānanda: They bring in preachers to preach Bhagavad-gītā, but they themselves, they don't read Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So preachers means third-class preachers. Anybody is allowed to speak, any nonsense? That is going on?
Devotee: How they are going against it, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know how they are going against?
Devotee: I'm not familiar with this.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say, "I read Bhagavad-gītā"?
Devotee: I'm not familiar with Tirupati's practice.
Prabhupāda: Tirupati is establishing Gaṇeśa temple. That is against Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavān says that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānā yajanty anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. The rascals who are very much lusty, lost their intelligence, they worship other demigods.
Acyutānanda: The Rāmānuja sannyāsīs have had all their authority taken away from them by these...
Acyutānanda: All their authority in the temples has been taken away by the government committee.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Acyutānanda: Just ritualistically in the morning the sannyāsī comes and opens the door. He holds the key. We met him at Rangaji.
Indian man (1) = [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya sannyāsīs, they have no influence over them. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...to me that the actual purpose of this Tirupati government committee is eventually to do away with all religious function.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's their real plan.
Harikeśa: How to take the money that's being donated.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the beginning. They are making a show now, but eventually the plan will be to close all the temples.
Mahāṁsa: Nationalize all temples.
Harikeśa: Not close, 'cause you can make a lot of money. It's easier than enacting taxes.
Mahāṁsa: Just like banks.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but when they don't become profitable, then they'll close it. That's the point. Milk 'em dry. Instead of the state or the government being the servant of the Deity, they are making the Deity the servant of the government.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Money-earning servant.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The tax collector.
Acyutānanda: Just like they nationalize industries, they want to nationalize the temple, Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1) = [indistinct]
Harikeśa: In Andhra Pradesh all the temples are nationalized?
Indian man (1): Yes, all temples.
Harikeśa: What about ours?
Mahāṁsa: Well, they're not so strong in the other states. Andhra Pradesh and...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they'll copy it. I think they're starting in U.P. now. I read in the paper.
Acyutānanda: It'll spread all over India. Anywhere that there are big temples.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: U.P. has a lot of temples.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what about our temples?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they will gradually try.
Prabhupāda: So you make this American property.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Make it American property.
Harikeśa: How about English?
Prabhupāda: Our society is registered in America.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India presently we are registered in Bombay, and all the other centers are branch offices. That's why in Hyderabad they haven't touched us. In Maharastra... I think Maharastra will be the last state to do something of this type.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But then when it does it, what will you do?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll try our best to escape it, but if there's...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there no... We should try to make some provision now if possible.
Mahāṁsa: If the government wants to do that, you can't do anything.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are changing... We are making our constitution look like a welfare society, so this way we may not fall under this.
Acyutānanda: We have to preach to them so that they understand the value of this movement. [break]
Prabhupāda: Europeans, they are coming here not for religion, but they are coming for the Kṛṣṇa culture. You have to make that. Religion they have already got, Christian. Why they should come?
Mahāṁsa: They will say that this Kṛṣṇa culture is Hinduism.
Mahāṁsa: They will say Kṛṣṇa culture is Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: Then he's a rascal. Prove it in the court. Kṛṣṇa is not Hinduism. Never... Is there anything in the Bhagavad-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for the Hindus or for the Indians"?
Acyutānanda: The Hindu law is so elastic, anyone who calls himself a Hindu or who practices any branch...
Mahāṁsa: Or puts on tilaka.
Acyutānanda: ...puts on tilaka, he may have the lowest character or the highest standard, anyone, he will be all considered a Hindu.
Prabhupāda: So this should be taken to court, on the Supreme Court.
Harikeśa: But if there is no definition of Hindu, how can you prove...
Prabhupāda: There is no Hindu. It is not... Therefore we are not Hindu.
Acyutānanda: Well, they'll say, "This is our definition. This is what we say a Hindu is."
Acyutānanda: The court says, "This is what we say a Hindu is. So you're Hindus."
Prabhupāda: No, no. And court can say anything, but then why not put it into the judgment of many judges?
Harikeśa: Then we have to establish what is Hinduism...
Harikeśa: ...and what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Acyutānanda: It is already established.
Prabhupāda: You can define anything. That does not mean that your definition is perfect. Actually we have to... Who...? Suppose Hindu. So who is not accepting Bhagavad-gītā? But where is...? In the Bhagavad-gītā where is the mention of "Hindu"? Hmm? Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the father of all living entities." So why do they say that this is Hindusim?
Acyutānanda: Well, all religions say that they are the best. Jesus Christ says, "Everyone who comes to me, they will get the grace of God." So the same thing. But still they are Christians and you are Hindus.
Prabhupāda: So this cannot stay in the court. Kṛṣṇa's instruction is not for the Hindus. Nowhere is it mentioned.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The word "Hindu" doesn't appear in the Vedas anywhere.
Acyutānanda: Then why do you use in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness the Hindu caste marks, Hindus caste marks and tilakas? This is all Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: No, this is not Hinduism. Appears like Hindu. Just like you appear like an Indian sannyāsī, but you are not Indian.
Acyutānanda: The judge is wearing a white wig and a British suit. He's not British either.
Prabhupāda: No, we are clearly stating "Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Harikeśa: Yes, but Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god.
Prabhupāda: That is your definition. Kṛṣṇa doesn't say.
Harikeśa: But my definition counts, 'cause I'm in charge.
Prabhupāda: You can do any nonsense. That is... Therefore you have to be taken to the court, that "How you can..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are the court.
Prabhupāda: "...talk like nonsense and do like nonsense? Then anyone can do any nonsense thing? Then who will control you?"
Harikeśa: That's the point.
Mahāṁsa: The chief justice himself was saying like that in Madras. Their opinion will come in their favor.
Prabhupāda: No, they can give opinion, but there is supreme court. There is international court. We shall go...
Mahāṁsa: International court?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's only for disputes between countries, international court.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is country---"We are American. They are forcing us to become a Hindu." This is between country. You have to tackle with intelligence.
Mahāṁsa: It's become a world issue.
Acyutānanda: In most books about Hinduism they describe that Hinduism is a cult where they worship many gods and ultimately God is formless.
Acyutānanda: So we are against that. Then we are not Hindus even philosophically according to that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are against all so-called cheating religion. The Hinduism is also a cheating religion. We are preaching Bhāgavata, and Bhāgavata beginning that "We have kicked out all cheating religion." What is cheating religion? That one has to understand. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇitam [SB 6.3.19] = "Religion means the order given by God." If you do not know who is God, "imperson," then where is your religion? We have to tackle things.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They will consult all the standard dictionaries about Kṛṣṇa's definition and all the...
Prabhupāda: Dictionary is not the standard. The standard is the book itself. That is our preaching. You may bring some dictionary made by some fools. No. We have to take reference. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Acyutānanda: Well, even Jesus Christ just said, "I am for all," but there is Christianity.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Either God or God's representative, He is for everyone. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. That is the definition of sādhu. Titikṣavaḥ karunikaḥ suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [SB 3.25.21]. A saintly person... As God is for everyone, a saintly person is for everyone. Why he should be for Hindu or Muslim or Christian? That is the definition of saintly person. Suhrdaḥ. Suhṛdaḥ means well-wisher. So either Christ or any Vaiṣṇava, he is well-wisher for everyone. [break] ...suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhūtānām. We are preaching all over the world, and they are appreciating.
Harikeśa: So many others have preached Hinduism but have no result.
Prabhupāda: No result. Why they should become Hindu?
Acyutānanda: That sign is there, "Swami Vivekananda, the Hindu monk."
Prabhupāda: But who cares for Ramakrishna Mission? Hindu monk, but who cares for the Ramakrishna Mission? For the last eighty-five years they are working. How many Hindus they have made? Simply bogus propaganda. They advertise that "We have made all Americans..." But where the Americans? They picked up two American ladies, that's all. Where is the Hindu sādhus eating meat?
Acyutānanda: Here it says, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Babu nagar."
Acyutānanda: Who is Hare Kṛṣṇa Babu?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It says "Hare Kṛṣṇa nagar atar[?]" in the front also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is that? [break]
Indian man (1): That is Hare Kṛṣṇa land. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa Babu.
Prabhupāda: Babu? Babu means?
Indian man (1): It's a name of the [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: Foreign devotees, they are joining this movement not because it is a Hindu culture. They take it as a real spiritual culture. Otherwise why, for the last hundred, two hundred years, the Hindu sannyāsīs, yogīs, were going there? Who did accept? Did anybody? The Ramakrishna Mission, Hindu monk, within the eighty-five years, how many Hindus they have made? You can count maybe a dozen only. Huh? Did they make any Hindus---European, American young boys? And it is the Hindu custom that sannyāsīs eat meat?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Drink wine.
Prabhupāda: Drink wine.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And have women.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...drinking wine and eating meat, the next stage is illicit sex. Is that the business of the Hindu monk? There are sampradāyas, Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Śaṅkara-sampradāya. But where the Hindu monk drinks and eats meat? They have introduced it. Is that Hinduism?
Acyutānanda: [break] ...Satajit.
Prabhupāda: Nowadays everyone has become impersonal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...pure Vaiṣṇava. What is that?
Indian man (1): House of a Life Member.
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...take to our principles, these things will be automatically be finished. Na ca daivāt paraṁ balam [Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa].
Vāsughoṣa: In Indonesia the government has a Hindu-Buddha department.
Vāsughoṣa: Hinduism department in Indonesia. So they've divided the land..., you know, the different religions into different departments, and they have one man who studied in Benares. He's in charge of the whole country for Hinduism and Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: So why they do not allow our?
Vāsughoṣa: No, actually they allow us. They allow our society, but it's such a corrupt country that at any moment they could kick us out if they want. They have no principle except money.
Prabhupāda: Just like Africa.
Vāsughoṣa: Yes. But the man seems to be a little intelligent, a little knowledgeable. I met him. He seems to be a little... [break] They try to renovate temples there. They are very old temples like in India, and they have... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...they do not give for so-called religion, it is better. They are not spoiling the money.
Acyutānanda: The head of that Viśva-Hindu went to Delhi to get tax exemption. So they said, "You drop the name Hindu." They said, "No, we will never drop the name Hindu. Even if you don't give us tax exemption, we will be without the tax exempt, but we will never give up our name Hindu." [break]
Prabhupāda: Whatever whimsically you make your law, that is law. Actually they are not fighting. Hindu law means Manu-saṁhitā. So who is pressing them that "We don't require any law except this"? And where is that Hindu, strong Hindu? Hindu means Manu-saṁhitā. [break] ...mānave prāhur [Bg. 4.1] This Manu. Original instruction is coming from Manu. [break] ...the word Manu, the word mānava has come. Just like he has started that mānava-dharma. Mānava-dharma means Manu. That he does not know. From Manu, mānava has come, just like from sādhu, sādhava has come. They do not know even grammar. [chuckles] These leaders, they do not know even grammar. [break] ...chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam.
Harikeśa: If the government is giving them free homes and we're giving them free prasādam, why should they work?
Prabhupāda: They should work for Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: But there is one economist---I think you've quoted him---John Kenneth Galbraith. He says that if there's no... If somebody is supplied with a place to sleep and something to eat, why should he work? That he won't work unless there is some motivation. If he's forced to work, he will work. Otherwise he won't work.
Prabhupāda: No. Your preaching is not meant for creating a lazy class of men. You have to engage them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness business. That is preaching.
Mahāṁsa: Then you feed them prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and then give him prasādam. He will be automatically purified and offer himself for service.
Harikeśa: So they have to chant first.
Acyutānanda: Then they will say, "Well, you are proselytizing by rice."
Prabhupāda: I am not proselytizing. I am bringing him...
Acyutānanda: Unless they take to your religion...
Prabhupāda: ...to his original consciousness.
Acyutānanda: Unless they follow you, then you won't feed them. You are starving them until they...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We shall go on. Chanting will also go on. Both things.
Acyutānanda: That was the article of the CARE, I think. They will give food, but you cannot use it to proselytize.
Prabhupāda: No, we give kṛṣṇa-prasādam, not food.
Acyutānanda: Like in Guntur, in a Christian hospital, in the maternity ward they would not release the baby to the parents until they converted to Christianity.
Acyutānanda: In Guntur. So they did it to one brāhmaṇa family, and he brought it to the court because he was more orthodox, and they were... Only one or two articles came in the newspaper. It was hushed up.
Harikeśa: It takes ten years for the court to decide.
Acyutānanda: Well, immediately the police ordered that it had to be released. Or they put... Just like the Muhammadan water, they put some bread in a well in a place like this, and then they can say, "You are all Christian now because you have drunk the bread that we have put there."
Prabhupāda: They are doing like that here?
Acyutānanda: Yes. In Europe, when Christianity first came to Constantine, the priests would stay in the top of a river, and they marched an army through the river, and the priest put the holy water, and when the army came on the other side they said, "Now you've all been baptized. You're all Christians." Mass conversion. [break] ...Hindu groups are mixing Hinduism and Indian nationality, it's fascism. That was also the government's...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?
Acyutānanda: The Hindu groups. That was the point that enraged the government. The same paṇḍitas with the prāyaścitta, they don't like the Muhammadans, they don't like the Christians. They say, "You have created Pakistan, so all the Muhammadans should go there. This is Hindustan."
Prabhupāda: Murgh meat here?
Indian man (1): Not everyone takes it.
Indian man (1): Mostly. Nowadays it is a fashion to eat when the brāhmaṇas take in a house.
Indian man (1): Yes, they take it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The brāhmaṇas?
Indian man (1): Yes, most of them. In the houses they want to [indistinct], they go to houses and they... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...sambhava. Where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdra.
Indian man (1): But according to...
Prabhupāda: Not vegetarian. We are neither nonvegetarian. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26]. So we offer Him, and then we eat it. So we have nothing to do with vegetarian and nonvegetarian. If Kṛṣṇa says that "You give Me flesh," then we can eat flesh also. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I have heard one person say that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ doesn't include other things. There are many other things that we offer Kṛṣṇa besides patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So similarly, why can't we offer meat? He doesn't say, "Don't offer Me meat."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā it doesn't say you can't offer Kṛṣṇa meat.
Prabhupāda: So if you like, you can do that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't want to.
Prabhupāda: [chuckles] What directly He says, you have to take. And if you interpret, that can be interpreted.
Acyutānanda: They have rewritten the Bible, "Thou shalt not murder."
Prabhupāda: [break] ...can be used as paperweight. [laughter] [break] ...use anything for Kṛṣṇa.
Yaśodānandana: ...temples they are worshiping this Dvārakā-śilā with the śalagrāma-śilā.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but we have no such instruction. [end]