Keśavalāl Trivedi: ...mission, and they only think that...
Prabhupāda: So we shall return now?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: [break] ...my weekly visits, that Jyoti Swami showed me that incident at Japan, and he asked me, "Have you seen...?"
Prabhupāda: Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Makṣikā bhramarā icchanti... Maksikā, these ordinary flies, they find out where is sore, and the bhramarā, he finds out where is honey. Similarly, doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. And the Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing preaching all over the world---that has not come to his eyes. He has come to the Japanese incident. He has come.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, I told him there might be some, in a big organization, such a...
Prabhupāda: No, why did you not say, "You are such a pāmara that this thing has come to your notice and not other thing"?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: That I told him. For that he began to say, "No, no, you read my literature. You'll be... We don't have any envy." I took that also with me, and he gave me... Next time, when I went, after reading, I said, "How many mistakes are there? Not even a single dot is mistake in other literature, and still you say this literature? And what is new therein? Nothing I find new."
Prabhupāda: Just try to understand that whatever it may be, what is the mentality of these rascals, that "The good things do not come to your notice"? If something is bad, "Oh, here is..." You see. Pāmarāḥ doṣam icchanti guṇam icchanti paṇḍitāḥ. Saj-janā guṇam icchanti doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. That means they are not even a Vaiṣṇava. You see? Vaiṣṇava means paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2].
Even one has got some fault, a Vaiṣṇava does not see that. He takes the good qualities. But they are not even Vaiṣṇava. Yes. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. The mission of Gau..., Caitanya Mahāprabhu is being preaching all over the... That does not come to their... Some Japanese paper has written something---it has come immediately. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. That fool, that he's a... Here is a pāmara, and he's a lowest of the mankind. You can say that "Why this thing has come prominent to your eyes and not the other thing?"
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, I did say in my own way, though I did not quote this, that "You are a pāmara." I said, "Why..."
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can say now, that "That day I forgot to say that you are a pāmara. So I have come to say that you are a pāmara." [laughter] "I forgot it. Excuse me, I forgot it. So you are pāmara."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: And it is so. As a matter of fact, it is so. And for that, the apology is, "No, no, I do realize that lot of work is being done about that."
Prabhupāda: "But because I am pāmara, I am finding out this fault." But you have now completed the sentence. "You know lot of things, but because you are pāmara, therefore this thing has come prominent."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: That is the proviso.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the proof that you are a pāmara.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: In my own way, if they challenge us and they are convincing, because to the audience it has to be said. One gosvāmī, when I said, "Well, this is a movement which I very much like, and like also to join," then he said that---because I am conducting Gītā Bhavan[?] founded by him---he said, "No, no, no, no. We as a matter of fact champion that cause. But afterwards, when we realized that it is not sampradāyic, we have given it up. Therefore..." Then his conduct... The next day itself, he was not liking me. I have been doing this propaganda, this Gītā pravacanam, for the past four years in the organization founded by him. But the very next day, that gosvāmī, Puruṣottama Gosvāmī of Vṛndāvana...
Yaśodānandana: The envious one.
Prabhupāda: He has got a camp here?
Yaśodānandana: No, in Madras.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: When he was here it happened. And that devotee's grace... Then I said, "What is the reason why you say?" "No, no. After all, we are qualified. Those mlecchas..."
Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for you. You are so qualified that nobody cares for you.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did he say?
Yaśodānandana: What did he say about mlecchas?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, "Why mlecchas, how can they have, after all?" I said, "You yourself were a married person, and..."
Prabhupāda: And you did not know that they are not... If they are mlecchas, then you are nārakī. It is said, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī. Yes. Ārcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī [Padma Purāṇa]. Anyone who considers in terms of caste a Vaiṣṇava, he's a nārakī. Nārakī. Now, just like we go to the temple to see the Deities. Many millions of people are coming, but everyone knows that this is made of stone. But they are going to see the stone?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: There is God in it.
Prabhupāda: Huh? They are going to see the stone? So arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhiḥ. Anyone who thinks like that... Similarly, everyone knows that he is European, he is American, but because he is Vaiṣṇava, one should not see like that, "mleccha." If he sees, then he's nārakī.
Yaśodānandana: It also proves that they have no faith in the holy name, because the hari-nāma purifies everything.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: [aside:] Did that svāmī show that article to Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yaj-jihvāgre nāma tubhyām. Aho bata svapaco gariyan [SB 3.33.7].
Hari-śauri: [aside:] Did he?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mahārāja, did you show that article to...?
Prabhupāda: Why do you speak in the middle? You should hear. Yaj-jihvāgre nāma tubham, yan-nāma śruti-mātrena pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ [SB 9.5.16]. And this rascals says the nāma has no... See. We have to meet simply rascals all over. The so-called religionists, so-called svāmīs, so-called yogīs, so-called politicians. You see? Simply we have to meet with all rascals.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, he was reminding me of this Jyoti Mahārāja showing that article on Kṛṣṇa Jayantī day to the reading out to the entire audience. That was a rubbish.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, read to the whole audience.
Prabhupāda: He was reading?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Ah, that is what he reminds me, because I said the incident which I had with him... On Kṛṣṇa Jayantī day I did not go there. But on that day it was being read out. That was the silly part of it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew. Oh, wow.
Yaśodānandana: So Prabhupāda, these same people that...
Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? What was the wrong?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, he said that "This movement has got these black sheep, and they have been banned in Japan. Everywhere they will be banned."
Prabhupāda: But there is something in Japan which is banned. But what you have got in Japan?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Nothing.
Yaśodānandana: First of all, we are not even banned in Japan. The center is still there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Banned means we had something. But what proof you have got that you have done something in Japan?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: There is something; there is nothing.
Prabhupāda: So it is better. Just like one man said that "I have lost fifty thousand this year." His friend said, "You are still fortunate, because you had fifty thousand. But I have no fifty paisa even."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: So there is something. Here nothing.
Prabhupāda: "So you are so fortunate that you could suffer the loss of fifty thousand, but I have nothing to lose."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: But that is for a discriminating man. Here it is an ignorance, asūyā, envy. When Acyutānanda Swami was addressing one man, said, "Why always have Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa? We can have Hare Christ also." Same answer as Your Holiness gave, he said, "Yes, yes, you can have it. Whoever says... We don't say no. It is also possible, but degree, matter of degree," as Your Holiness the other day put it. And some chapters and words were read out to the people. They were convinced that same saṅkīrtana is also sanctioned in the Bible.
Prabhupāda: We have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu or you? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. So we have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu. What is this building?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a tuberculosis hospital.
Śravaṇānanda: Prabhupāda, they said that if Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries, why didn't He go there Himself? That's what they told us.
Prabhupāda: So He left the credit for me. [laughter]
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Prabhupāda: He loves His devotee more than Himself.
Harikeśa: Why didn't Kṛṣṇa kill everybody at the Battle of Kurukṣetra?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, by His simple desire He could kill. [laughter] He said therefore, bhaviṣyatvam. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra haibe [CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126]. He is leaving the task for somebody else.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: [break] ...Caitanya-caritāmṛta, all these things, Swāmījī has brought out very vividly. I have read only introduction and some portion only. But what Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered and ordained, is taking place. It is very vividly brought out. [break] ...behind using the machinery, cars, airplanes, other things also, I think very convincing, Swāmījī, when you say that they are meant only for Kṛṣṇa's service, and if it is dedicated for that, it is used; otherwise it is misused, abused.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is bhakti. Just like you are walking; some money falls down from your pocket. Then you forgot. And somebody, "Oh, here is some money"; he takes it. And somebody takes it but offers to you. Who is the better man?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: The person offering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That who takes it and puts in the pocket, he is a thief. And who takes it and offers to you, he is sincere friend.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Very fine analogy.
Prabhupāda: So we can use everything only for Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we are friend to Kṛṣṇa, and you are thief. Kṛṣṇa's property you are using unauthorizedly. Therefore you are a thief.
Devotee (3): The Christians say that God has given us certain things to enjoy, for instance. Just like I was talking to one Christian about eating meat, and he said, "Well, I enjoy eating meat."
Prabhupāda: So the tiger will say he will enjoy you. Why do you protest against the tiger?
Acyutānanda: In the Bible it says that everything was for the enjoyment of man. "Man is sovereign over the animals."
Prabhupāda: Enjoyment does not mean that you kill him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Enjoy means protection. It means protecting, not eating.
Prabhupāda: Go-rakṣya. You protect the cows and take the best food in the world, milk. That is enjoyment. Not foolishly to eat the cow.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: I am reminded, Swāmījī, of one day, the tussle between two Muslims. One happened to be a high-court judge and another, Faizul[?], he was always propagating that there should not be animal killed for human purposes and all those things. So on one platform I was the organizer. This high-court judge had been invited, and he began to say animal kingdom is meant for exploitation by human being. And this man flared up = "Where do you get in Koran? You are talking some nonsense, though you are high-court judge." It was a problem for me how to manage this high-court judge, presiding high-court judge, and this man who was a public man. Then he convinced that "Don't say all these things. Where are the passages? In Arabia this eating of goat was a necessity then. That is how it was. Otherwise human beings cannot exploit. You withdraw. Otherwise I will make this meeting a pandemonium." That is how he did it, and he succeeded. [laughter] He succeeded, very same. That Faizul[?] succeeded. And this idiot who was appointed by Rajajiv, high-court judge, he could not convince. I said, "Why do you talk about controversial subjects when you do not know?" But he was a presiding judge. He thought, "Whatever I talk is sense." That chief justice asked me, "How have I spoken?" So he wanted certificate from me afterwards. I said that "If that incarnation of [indistinct], if you should have left, that would have been better. You did very well with regard to your experiences about this movement and the..., at Chicago and all those things, but you dabbled with thinking that this is something original."
Yaśodānandana: All of those speakers are very eager to give credit to Vivekananda, but he has not done anything. Prabhupāda has done the most. They cannot see properly, all these speakers.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one knows Vivekananda in America.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Ācchā?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever heard his name.
Indian man: Ācchā?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not that no one has heard. But they are working for the last eighty-five years. What they have done?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They only have about four or five temples, centers, in America. There is no Deity established in the temples, only some big...
Prabhupāda: Now recently they have established one temple of Ramakrishna in Vṛndāvana. Nobody goes there. Nobody goes there.
Yaśodānandana: It is simply a hospital.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the Deity?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: They have taken up social work, isn't it? Everybody. Swāmījī, I am now reminded. A few weeks back I was invited to Raj Bhavan. I went as an invitee of an invitee. And that Madhuben Shah[?] began to wax eloquent because he happened to be the president of the world union. And they said, "Oh, we want to integrate the entire world, and the emotion and decoration[?], all those things." And they invited the views of Āryans, of twenty-five persons. All spoke. I did not speak. I kept quiet. Somebody said, "Here is a person who really knows." I said, "I am sick of this talk. And why should we have another organization for the same purpose?" Then I said, "But anyhow, I don't know. If Kṛṣṇa..." Nowadays I use that...
Prabhupāda: There is Theosophical Society?
Yaśodānandana: Yes, all over the world, international.
Prabhupāda: Started from here?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: It was started... Madras center and there in America.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...come from the other side. Registering this association, some friend suggested, "Why don't you make it 'God consciousness'?" And "No, 'Kṛṣṇa conscious.' If I bring God consciousness, they will bring so many gods."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: And another question reply was also very convin..., that all other are gods, but He is Godhead. That is very clinching expla... Some of these things are really very direct replies.
Prabhupāda: And actually that is fact.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: This was... Even Acyutānanda said the other day. Somebody asked us that question, "Why not 'God conscious'? Why do you want 'Kṛṣṇa'?" He also said the same thing. [break] "What is the difference between thieving the butter and other things by Lord Kṛṣṇa and thieving by us?" I said, "The thieving is thieving." I said, "How can there be theft of..."
Prabhupāda: And if you steal, you will be beaten with shoes.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: We are beaten with shoes, but He is allowed.
Prabhupāda: Not only allowed, but He is worshiped = "Sir, it is very kind of You that You have stolen." [laughter]
Keśavalāl Trivedi: That is sure. In forensic language it is called abet, abetted. The very owner abets, "It is kind of you to have committed theft of this." [end]