Prabhupāda: These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is the fact. But let them appreciate, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually I think they all will. Some are now...
Prabhupāda: No, they are intelligent. First...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, it seems to me that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: [laughing] Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam. And although they may not read it, their children are reading it.
Prabhupāda: Somebody is reading.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement---without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine.
Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Crime = What to do?"
Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why and what to do?"
Prabhupāda: Every paper. There are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana, then lecture.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You chant?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only. [break] That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money?
[pause]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He was pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Mujibur Rahman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away.
Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so..., Napoleon.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of..., what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children = "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much... He was known as Bona. You do not know all these things?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an... So where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? [chuckles] Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? [laughter] Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent.
Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there = life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. [break] ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27] = "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha, foolishly declaring that 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen... It takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine... You die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say?
Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha, then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, "Yow, yow, yow, yow!" You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as... Simply one stick---finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. [laughs] He knows that "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves---Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi---everyone is finished. So where is..., what is the value of my planning again? [break] There are many gods?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. [break] ...Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches... What is called? Straw? What is called?
Harikeśa: Lines?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Dorma. We say dorma. The bamboo cut into slice and open...
Harikeśa: Citar. Citar.
Prabhupāda: Citar?
Harikeśa: Like the roof in the other place in Madras.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is English? Citar it is called?
Harikeśa: No, Hindi.
Prabhupāda: English, what is the English? They do not use it.
Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch.
Prabhupāda: Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the production? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lick up the house. [break] ...rows of statues on the beach, many statues---for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not kṛṣṇa-bhaktas, these people, at all.
Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches.
Prabhupāda: They have no guidance.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles = no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out.
Prabhupāda: You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat?
Harikeśa: They're not cooking it now.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: They're not doing that now.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home.
Prabhupāda: That is very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides.
Prabhupāda: Very good idea.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that he finds it very.... From reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons.
Prabhupāda: No, purchased from Jagannātha temple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, like that.
Prabhupāda: People would come to offer Him prasādam, so what is the cost of the prasādam, that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go, and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam. Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much, it can be eaten by five, six men. Khicuṛi, vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in Māyāpur, the Mr. Das, the lawyer and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little.
Prabhupāda: Yes, still there are.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's a very pop... It's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay...
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people.
Prabhupāda: That is temple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And first-class prasādam.
Prabhupāda: So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. [end]