Prabhupāda: They boil it with... Oh, you have come. Good morning. Thank you. With rice. I forgot your name.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Keśavalāl Trivedi.
Prabhupāda: Trivedi, Mr. Trivedi, yes. So, who is independent? This is our question. Who is independent? Do you know any man who is independent or any animal or any...?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No.
Prabhupāda: So why they are thinking independently?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Unless we have got the identity, correct identity, we cannot be independent.
Prabhupāda: [aside] What is this?
Mahāmṣa: This is keys for the lock, Prabhupāda. It fell down.
Prabhupāda: I think somebody has left.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, there is lock and chain.
Mahāmṣa: We can go this way, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Which way? This is natural lake or...?
Mahāmṣa: Yes, Prabhupāda. It never dries up. It stays full all year round.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gigantic. Like the Hyderabad lake.
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Mahāmṣa: It looks bigger than the Hyderabad lake.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bigger.
Prabhupāda: So if you are not independent, what is the value of your thinking independently?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Absolutely none. None.
Prabhupāda: But everyone is thinking independently.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes. That is māyā. That is the māyā, that which is not.
Prabhupāda: They are making plans, theories, "ism." What is the value of this?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Absolutely none.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everything is becoming failure. So preach this truth to the world, that "You are all rascals. Why you are thinking independently?" Huh? "Why I am rascal?" "Because you are thinking independently. That is the proof that you are a rascal." Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Īśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhaḥ. And they are thinking independently.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Baddha we have got, and still we are thinking...
Prabhupāda: Baddha-jīva, every moment he is under the strict laws of nature. Generally they think that... They speak also, "I think." Do they not say? "I think," as if he is independently thinking. What you can think? Hmm? Acyutānanda Mahārāja, why do they say "I think," "In my opinion"? What is the value of your opinion?
Harikeśa: Well, I have a certain amount of experience, and with my intelligence and my mind and my scientific method, I can put all that together and come out with some practical solution which I can work on.
Prabhupāda: That you cannot, because you are not independent. Uru-damni baddhaḥ. If you are tied hands and legs with strong rope, how you can think of "I shall become free in this way. I shall become free..."? But your hands and legs are tied up, so why do you think foolishly that you shall become free in this way, you shall become free this way? First of all open this, the tightening knot; then you plan that "I shall become..." But there is no such chance. So what is the value of your thinking like that?
Acyutānanda: Well, relatively speaking, it's better to do...
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Because you are so rascal, you do not know that "I cannot move even an inch, and I am making plan." That is the proof that you are a rascal.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Tena vinā tṛṇam api na calati. That is the way.
Harikeśa: But why are people in the capital...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we call them all rascals. That is our confirmation of our statement. Mūḍhas, you all rascals, without any exception. Hmm? The other day the high-court judge, he's supposed to be the most intelligent person within this state, high-court judge, and he was talking so many nonsense.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Because he thinks he knows. He does not know.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: One who thinks he knows...
Prabhupāda: Manyamāna, manyamāna. He is thinking he is very intelligent.
Acyutānanda: While he was saying that, I was thinking, "I hope I never have him for a judge." [laughter]
Prabhupāda: You'll find everywhere such.
Acyutānanda: Ultimately he was saying, "It is not Kṛṣṇa or this. It is some 'something.' That is the reality."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: He was thinking that he was bringing about some synthesization.
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: And that he was bringing...
Acyutānanda: Scattering[?] confusion.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: With this land also? No. This building?
Mahāmṣa: I think it is a school, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] He does not know. He does not say that "It is certainly school." "It may be."
Harikeśa: Well, if I'm convinced it's a school, it's a school.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: I mean, the only thing that really matters is my perception of that thing.
Prabhupāda: You learned from him that it is school. Before that, you did not know. Therefore you have to learn. That experience is valuable, when you learn it.
Harikeśa: Yes, but the only thing that makes it a school...
Prabhupāda: You cannot imagine by seeing a building that it is school. You cannot imagine that. That is foolishness.
Harikeśa: But all the people inside, they are also imagining that it's a school.
Prabhupāda: So that is all...
Acyutānanda: Just like if there is a pen. If I use it to kill someone, it is a weapon. If I use it to mix something, it is an instrument. If I use it to write with, then it's a pen. So it is not a pen. It is not a weapon. It is my idea that I impose on the object that makes it what it is.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Your idea, that is foolishness. But you learn from a teacher that this is pen; this is not a weapon. You have to learn it. If you don't learn it, then you will go on making experiment whether it is pen or it is weapon or it is this or that. Go on. But it will never come to any conclusion.
Mahāmṣa: Like giving a child a pen who does not know...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mahāmṣa: ...that we have to write with it. He has to be taught that we have to write.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere you have to learn from the perfect person. Then his knowledge is perfect. So our proposition is that = learn from Kṛṣṇa and you get perfect knowledge.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: That is why he is jagat guru.
Harikeśa: I mean, we've invented this pen, so we can invent how to use the pen.
Prabhupāda: You have not invented. Some experienced more than yourself, he has done. You have been given the pen to use it for that purpose.
Acyutānanda: Yes. Whenever some scientist does something, the whole nation of that scientist takes the credit. That is another idea. They say, "We made the pen," or something. Everyone in India takes the credit.
Prabhupāda: That is animalism. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ. "I belong to some particular body, and he belongs to the same body or same nation. Therefore we become..." Instead of "I," we become "we."
Acyutānanda: Recently there was an atomic scientist who his all major education was in America and Europe, and he won a Nobel Prize award...
Prabhupāda: That is the tendency everywhere. The Britishers... You go to the Parliament and Westminster Abbey. They have kept all the statues of Sir Isaac Newton and this Churchill, this... Mean, they want to show that "It is only our nation who has produced all these intelligent persons."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, yes. From "I-ness" to "we-ness."
Prabhupāda: This is basis of Gītā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Learn from the real person, tattva-darśinaḥ, who has seen, who has actual experience of the truth. Learn from him. The Gītā never recommends that you imagine and make your theories. Never said. That is the Vedic culture. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the way. Take lesson from Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. Then you will get experience. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is the use of imagining?
Harikeśa: I mean, after all, all this talk about God was simply there because of man's desire to explain the unknown. He saw a thunderbolt and...
Prabhupāda: It is unknown to the rascal man. [laughter] It is known to the sober man. He should become sober instead of becoming a rascal. That is required. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne [Bg. 5.18]. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda [Chāndogya Upaniṣad 6.14.2] = "He knows, who has accepted the ācārya." This is Theosophical Society, I think. Huh? That trademark. Or Ramakrishna Mission.
Acyutānanda: No, Salvation Army.
Prabhupāda: Salvation Army. Oh.
Mahāmṣa: This is also school.
Harikeśa: Actually we're the only Salvation Army. [laughter]
Acyutānanda: [break] ...the authority of a authority. We're accepting his authority, but his experience comes from his direct perception, which comes back to...
Prabhupāda: We don't take such authorities, who takes experience from others. We take authority who is...
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Experienced.
Prabhupāda: Automatically. Parāsya bhaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Svabhāva..., you can.... Just like if you ask me how to do something, if I say, "Yes, you do like this," svabhāvikī. I have got by nature knowledge how to do it perfectly. That is going on. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Kṛṣṇa is dictating that "You do like this." So, you see, everything is coming perfect. From the nim seed a nim tree will come. It is so nicely made by Kṛṣṇa---bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]---that it will come nim tree, not mango tree. The chemicals are so combined. You do not know what is there, a small seed, baṭa vṛkṣa. And a huge banyan tree will come out, not other tree. That is knowledge. He has given the whole, I mean to say, operation in a small seed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. There is no mistake. You simply take it and cultivate. You'll get the result.
Acyutānanda: So that principle which makes things grow, the Īśopaniṣad says, so 'ham asmi: "I am that principle."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Acyutānanda: The Īśopaniṣad says in the ultimate śloka, so 'ham asmi: "I am that."
Prabhupāda: Asmi means "It is my energy. It is my energy."
Acyutānanda: No, it says...
Prabhupāda: If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Kṛṣṇa, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhūti-bhinnam. Because everything... Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything has come from Kṛṣṇa.
Acyutānanda: No, the Īśopaniṣad says that you are that principle. Īśopaniṣad says the principle which is lighting the sun...
Prabhupāda: Yes, a devotee accepts... That we accept.
Acyutānanda: ...that "I am that principle. The being that is lighting the sun, I am that."
Prabhupāda: I do not follow you.
Acyutānanda: So 'ham asmi. That sixteenth...
Harikeśa: "Like unto the sun, as am I."
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, so 'ham asmi---because I am part and parcel.
Acyutānanda: No, but it says "I am that, " not that "I am part of that."
Prabhupāda: No.
Acyutānanda: "I am that." "Like unto..."
Prabhupāda: If even it is said, it can be accepted, because I am qualitatively the same.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Quantity, much difference.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: No, but the direct statement...
Prabhupāda: I am... If I say, "I am Indian," what is the wrong there, if I say, "I am Indian"?
Acyutānanda: That is something else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not something else.
Acyutānanda: But to directly accept the śruti, it says you are that same principle.
Prabhupāda: And therefore you have to learn from the guru. And if you directly take, then you remain a fool. Therefore you require a guru. That is the instruction of śruti. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to learn śruti. You have to come to a guru.
Acyutānanda: No, but this is after that. The ultimate conclusion of that Upaniṣad, śruti, the authority, is that you are that same principle.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the same principle.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: In quality.
Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām.
Acyutānanda: Well, nothing can be more eternal than another eternal.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is eternal.
Acyutānanda: It is contradictory then. Nityo nityanānāṁ. You cannot say that one thing is more eternal than another thing.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not the point. Everyone is eternal.
Acyutānanda: So how can one be more eternal than...
Prabhupāda: As God is eternal, so you are also eternal.
Acyutānanda: Then why the distinction...?
Prabhupāda: But because you have accepted this material body, you are foolishly thinking that you are not eternal. Otherwise, as God is eternal, you are also eternal.
Acyutānanda: Then why should one be distinguished from another if they are both eternal?
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun distinguished from the sunshine, but qualitatively heat and light is there. But because sunshine is there, you cannot say sun is there. That you cannot say. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. Clearly said.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: I think, Swāmījī, you explained this, and I could draw rationality from it, that "I am īśa, but not I am sarveśa. I am ātman but not Paramātman."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: "I am aṁśa but not Paramāṁśa."
Prabhupāda: That is explained in other... You have to take reference. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. I am also īśvaraḥ. That I explained so many times. But that does not mean I am parameśvara. Parameśvara is Kṛṣṇa. What is this building? Hmm?
Acyutānanda: This is more of that Christian...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Acyutānanda: Same seal as the Christian...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that?
Acyutānanda: This is a mosque.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi I was not able to explain till I heard Swāmījī on the first day at Rajeswara Mandapa. That fits in. Otherwise Māyāvādīns, "All right, but Śaṅkarācārya saying ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Why you say no?" Because so many persons ask me question. And when I was confronted, I was not able to say that. But the way the mukti was defined, mukti, yes, and in the lecture, and īṣa, sarveśa, all those things---ātmā, Paramātmā, aṁśa, Paramāṁśa---there I found that it can be explained. Because so many persons, they ask in public meeting like Lions Club, where we take up these topics. Then we feel at our wit's end. But now I think I can explain them.
Prabhupāda: So that day my explanation was all right?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, that is how I feel. And that is what will apply also to Acyutānanda Swami's question also, I think.
Acyutānanda: No, I'm just fencing.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, no, that's all... I know.
Acyutānanda: So Durga is higher than Viṣṇu, because Viṣṇu required Durga to awaken Him from the yoga-nidrā to kill Madhu and Kaitabha. So she controls Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if I ask my servant that "You ask me to get up at seven o'clock," that does not mean... [laughter]
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, some of these things we could not follow. As a matter of Madhu-Kaitabha-vadha, I have read it several times. I explained I could not [indistinct Sanskrit]... [end]