Dr. Patel: It came to my mind today.
Prabhupāda: This is beginning of knowledge. Everyone is thinking that he is independent. But completely under the control of prakṛti. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Then brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham amṛtasyāvyayasya ca dharmasya.
Prabhupāda: Where is the entrance? Here? This side?
Saurabha: This will be, there. This will be the entrance.
Prabhupāda: A small door?
Saurabha: No, no. This three big space, about seven feet, seven feet, seven feet. There's three openings. [break]
Prabhupāda: Scientists, do they accept this prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]?
Dr. Patel: I think many of those wise people do accept. But you have been harsh to all and none, all of them at par. But so many of them are really intelligent people who accept... Because we can't do so many things. Practically nothing we can do. Because we find out something here and there does not mean that we are perfect in knowledge. But the scientists nowadays are different than what the scientists were in those days when you were a student. And you think we are just like that. We are different today. He's a scientist. He will tell you. The scientists do see... Scientists do, does the darśana of God in every part of the science, in every cell of living cell, every atom.
Prabhupāda: No. What was the report?
Brahmānanda: Of the books?
Prabhupāda: No. The report, speak to him, that science...
Brahmānanda: The reporter? Scientist?
Prabhupāda: Scientist.
Girirāja: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Few scientists may be like that. That does not mean all scientists are like that. We are here. Half a dozen of us are scientists, aren't we, here?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose you are a scientist, I am scientist, so if you do not believe in God, I believe in God...
Dr. Patel: How can I not believe in God?
Prabhupāda: No, no. You say some of the scientists.
Dr. Patel: No, somebody else does not believe in God. Don't put me there. [laughter] "He does not believe in God." Suppose he does not believe in God. [laughter] It is impossible for me not to believe in God, how much I may try even in my dream. It is impossible.
Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking not you but a scientist, so-called scientist. So what did he say? That "There is no need of God"?
Girirāja: Yes. He said, "We don't know where the elements came from that made the creation, but we know that we don't require God to explain it."
Prabhupāda: This is the reply. All the so-called scientists, their only point is how to deny the existence of God.
Dr. Patel: But how can you say, "All the scientists," sir? I strongly oppose this statement.
Giriraj: I have spoken to many...
Dr. Patel: I mean, all scientists don't do that.
Prabhupāda: Majority.
Dr. Patel: Some of them.
Girirāja: I have spoken to many students coming out of the Indian schools, and they all say that "The universe was created by a chunk and it exploded," and they have no training that God is there behind everything that you see.
Dr. Patel: Everything is occurring by explosions. In our mind an explosion occurs, and we start believing in God. So that is not that, sir. I think they are misguided. How can anything happen without a supreme power?
Prabhupāda: If they are misguided, how they are scientists?
Dr. Patel: But we have all learned in the same schools of science---he, I and the rest, also scientists, here. We have learned the same way the science. But it all depends upon how he grasps it, how he thinks about it, how he understands it.
Prabhupāda: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so-called scientist.
Dr. Patel: The great-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darśana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times.
Prabhupāda: There are some scientists...
Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long, narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long, narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: That doesn't matter if you call them "rascal" or no rascal, but that is their way. That's all. Our way is this; their way may be that. We must not... By many...
Prabhupāda: No, no. God says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55].
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: How you can manufacture your own way? That is rascal.
Dr. Patel: But that is their bhakti.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That...
Dr. Patel: How can you say that? You may call them "rascal." Doesn't matter to them. But then that is their way, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes... That is obstinacy.
Dr. Patel: That... Obstinacy or no obstinacy, that is their way. That's all. Truth has to be understood.
Prabhupāda: You cannot understand God in your own way. That is not possible. Everyone is...
Dr. Patel: "Those also come to Me," avidhi-pūrvakam. Avidhi-pūrvakam.
Prabhupāda: Avidhi means rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: You may call them rascal or rogue or...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Avidhi, avidhi...
Dr. Patel: ...but they are going to the same place.
Prabhupāda: You are a medical man. If somebody is doing wrongly, you must say it is a rascaldom. Yes. You cannot accept, "Oh, you are all right. You are all right. You are doing in your own way." [laughter] He's another rascal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right, sir.
Prabhupāda: That's right? You are a medical man and you'll, you'll...?
Dr. Patel: Still I say... You'll hear.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, I cannot hear this.
Dr. Patel: You see, we don't understand the working of those people in Africa, those junglis. But they do some...
Prabhupāda: But you are not a jungli; you are a medical man, sir.
Dr. Patel: Please listen to me. I beseech you to hear me for a minute. They do some things which we cannot explain, and we do by their own ways.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: The scientists know it.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you do in your own way, that is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Then we are rascals.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I am representative to all the rascals of the world here. [laughs] That way, if you say so.
Prabhupāda: Anything which is really scientific, you cannot do in your own way. "Two plus two equal to four" is applicable everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to five. It is my own way." This is rascaldom. Scientific means "Two plus two---four." It is accepted everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to three. That is my own way."
Dr. Patel: So many phenomenas which are...
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is rascaldom. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: We are not able to explaining...
Prabhupāda: Scientific means there cannot be two opinions. The same. That is scientific.
Dr. Patel: Aren't there multiple ways of approaching the same truth? One may be more straight. Bhakti may be more straight, according to us, but...
Prabhupāda: No, no. But we are... Truth is one. Truth is one. You cannot say that "I have got my own way of understanding truth." That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Well, then I honestly have a little difference, and that is that truth is one point and we want to approach it. You go straight, directly. Yours is the shortest cut. I may be a fool, or a what you call, mūḍha...
Prabhupāda: So how you can remain...? If you are fool, how you can become a scientist?
Dr. Patel: But our science is taught to us, that's all. You may say anything about it, but that is what...
Prabhupāda: If you say, "My scientific way is foolish way..."
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Mine is foolish way, according to you. But according to you... Just be very wise. What is truth only God knows.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. That is your science.
Dr. Patel: What is truth, God knows.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is... A dog is also thinking that he is very intelligent. That is going on all over the world. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. That is rascaldom. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. "Oh, I am all right. I am going in my own way." That is rascaldom. That we say, rascaldom. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. This is rascal... Vimūḍhātmā means rascaldom. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: But the real scientists don't say this, that they are karta. That is the difference in the modern scientists and the little, hundred years back scientists.
Prabhupāda: Here the scientists says, "There is no need of God."
Dr. Patel: That one man told you, and you have been, I mean, deriding all the scientists.
Prabhupāda: No, no, mostly they are speaking that way.
Dr. Patel: You are very harsh to the scientists.
Prabhupāda: But they have created havoc, godlessness, atheism, all over the world. That is our protest.
Dr. Patel: And we are taking the benefit of that science by flying by the plane, by going by train...
Prabhupāda: It has become a difficult task.
Dr. Patel: ...by putting on these clothes, and so many things.
Prabhupāda: Just like the students, they say... What do they say? The students?
Girirāja: That in the beginning there was a chunk, and it exploded, and there's no God.
Prabhupāda: How they are spoiling the career. Whole life is spoiled. They are being taught in this way. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. This is going on, schools, colleges = "Don't believe in God." That has become a fashion, advancement. Yes. [Hindi conversation]
Dr. Patel: But all are not like that.
Indian man (1): Not all, but some. [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Not some; ninety percent.
Dr. Patel: Some of the fools like him may be thinking like that. I have been right from the... I was born in science, and I never thought that there was no God.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you...
Dr. Patel: Do you call me an exception?
Prabhupāda: I know that. I know. I know you.
Indian man (1): [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: No, no, but I am one of the scientists. He is one of the scientists. He has put on these clothes and...
Prabhupāda: But you are supporting the rascal. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: No, but I don't support a rascal. My explanations are... I strongly...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you say that "He is trying to understand in his own way."
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. Now, this point, you go straight. I go this way if I am a mūḍha, but I go there. That's all right. I'm a mūḍha. You may call me a fool. I don't mind it. But that is my way, and I am adamant about it. You may call me ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham... [Bg. 3.27]. But he is not calling himself a karta. He goes his own way. That's all. I am sorry to say these words to you, but this is what they think.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. That is...
Dr. Patel: [laughs] Call them if you like. Those were the rascals before. Some of them are rascals before. Even then...
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not... I am not trying, but Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says "mūḍha." Kṛṣṇa says "mūḍha."
Yaśomatīnandana: I was a rascal until I met Prabhupāda.
Dr. Patel: You are now not a rascal. I have been watching you. Thing is this, that there are multiple ways of God. We don't know the greatness of God. We just... I feel aghast in thinking about greatness of God, simply.
Prabhupāda: There is no multiple ways. That is...
Dr. Patel: There may be any number of ways, but I feel that there is what greatness of God. That's all.
Prabhupāda: That is... We protest. There is no many number. There is only one.
Dr. Patel: That depends on his own way.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: But you must be benevolent to these people, at least to an extent, to the scientists, that all scientists are wrong, are they? All scientists are not gadhas. Some of them are good [Hindi] and some of them evolve into man even.
Prabhupāda: But we say... If somebody says that "I have got my own way to understand," he is not scientist.
Dr. Patel: Their own way. A section of humanity's way. Not one man's. Science...
Prabhupāda: There cannot be many ways.
Dr. Patel: You see, our sad-darśana. The Vaiśeṣika śāstra is nothing but the modern science. The Vaiśeṣikas also wanted..., were going in search of God by their own way, were they not? The Vaiśeṣika śāstra is nothing but the physics and chemistry and mathematics, in true sense. [Hindi] Sad-darśana. Vaiśeṣika is one of the recognized darśanas of our ancient, glorious past. I think I am not wrong, sir, in that way. You will pardon me if I say, and I mean, press my point further.
Prabhupāda: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong...
Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaiśeṣikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaiśeṣika-śāstra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God.
Prabhupāda: No...
Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry and biology, science...
Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as rākṣasa.
Dr. Patel: But we are not Rāvaṇas, are we? We are Vaiśeṣikas.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone.
Dr. Patel: We are scientists, Vaiśeṣika scientists. We may not be bhakta scientists, but Vaiśeṣika scientists.
Prabhupāda: Bhakta is the only scientist. All others rascals.
Dr. Patel: That you may say, but, well... We are also bhakta.
Prabhupāda: That we don't say. Kṛṣṇa says. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15].
Dr. Patel: But who? Those who are not...
Prabhupāda: These rascals. All these rascals.
Dr. Patel: Those who are not in search of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: One who has not understood Kṛṣṇa, they are all māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. He may be Vaiśeṣika, Kanaḍa, Paramānuvāda, Māyāvāda. There are so... I know these.
Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda and these are all...
Prabhupāda: They different, different philosophies.
Dr. Patel: Vaiśeṣika is one of the six sciences, just like...
Prabhupāda: No, Māyāvāda is also one of them.
Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda does not belong to one of the six sciences, do they?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kanaḍa, Gautama, Astavakra, then nāstika Kapila. There are so many.
Yaśomatīnandana: Patañjali.
Prabhupāda: Patañjali, yes.
Dr. Patel: Patañjali yoga is also... He said, iśvaraḥ pari danaiva.[?] Doesn't he say in the rāja-yoga sutra that...
Prabhupāda: He is suggesting, but he has no clear idea.
Dr. Patel: He definitely has said in thirty-fourth sutra, īśvaraḥ pari danaiva: "If you can't vacate your mind, put God inside." Īśvaraḥ pari danaiva.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Holidays Inn Hotel? [break]
Yaśomatīnandana: ...accept God. But if they do accept God, then none of their activity shows it. They're constantly trying to disprove God.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? This boy wants to go in gurukula school.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Jayapatāka: In your prayer we say, pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe. But now don't you think we could say "viśva"? [Prabhupāda chuckles] I think that there's no place... You've not only covered Western world but practically whole world.
Prabhupāda: I say that because my Guru Mahārāja appointed me for that purpose. [break]
Jayapatāka: One of, er... There was a group of reporters who went to see the District Magistrate, and they were asking him, taking interview about so many different things. So finally they kept asking about ISKCON because of our Māyāpur center. So he said, "Well, I can't say anything about that. I can't say..." Finally one reporter said..., asked another very direct question about their staying here, this, that. And he said, "I have order from Indira Gandhi that the officers, that maṭha gaṁrami na.[?] No one, officer, should worry about ISKCON. You just do your own thing. So I can say nothing about them. I have got no authority to say anything about them. We've got this order from Indira Gandhi." Then the reporter said, "Oh, we can print that?" He said, "Please don't print that. Otherwise I will lose my job." So when the local Congress people heard that, they were very happy, our friends. So I think your visit did a great benefit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Jayapatāka: I brought the letter that the District Magistrate gave, recommending...
Prabhupāda: I think, therefore, they are giving this concession, two years.
Jayapatāka: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...said that "Don't bother about ISKCON."
Jayapatāka: Yes. In Bengali they were talking, maṭha gaṁrami na.[?] [break]
Prabhupāda: ...you said somebody is coming?
Girirāja: Oh, the Mahārāja of Udaipur.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So?
Girirāja: I have to call him at nine o'clock and ask him to come earlier.
Prabhupāda: No. You have already appointed time, you said.
Girirāja: No, he suggested eleven, and I said I would ask you and ring him back at nine.
Prabhupāda: So the interview, you suggested or he suggested?
Girirāja: Mr....
Prabhupāda: Udaipur.
Girirāja: He suggested. We suggested having a program at his house. So then he suggested that he wanted to meet you.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break]
Jayapatāka: ...appreciations. Now all the Caitanya-caritāmṛtas are printed.
Prabhupāda: You have got all?
Jayapatāka: No. I only have first, Ādi-līlā.
Prabhupāda: So, you haven't got here? No? So they want book. So they are not dispatching Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They haven't dispatched latter volumes. They've done the first few but not the new ones which have come. But he is sending some for your room, to have a complete set in each of your rooms.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It should be exhibited in Māyāpur, especially.
Jayapatāka: It would be nice to have a big book display, I think.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately ask them to dispatch to Māyāpur all books for demonstration. That is the main item, and they have not sent in Māyāpur? Caitanya?
Girirāja: Well, other than the Ādi-līlā, the later volumes only came within about a few days ago.
Prabhupāda: No, no. In Māyāpur all the books should be displayed.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We'll get a complete set for display also.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya-caritāmṛta especially, it should be displayed in Māyāpur. Immediately ask to send to Māyāpur. And whatever books you have got already, you send them immediately. You select what books you want. Harer nama harer nama [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break]
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...from Hong Kong yesterday, and there's one Chinese producer who's making a Chinese movie, and he wants our devotees to be in it for some time.
Prabhupāda: To make some money out of all...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It shows how a girl is going to different spiritual gurus for guidance. So they are sending the script first for approval.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Jayapatāka: They will pay something?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [indistinct] They are sending a script for approval. They're going to show how Vaiṣṇavas live.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devānanda feels that will give us a lot of publicity.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they paid good money.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayapatāka: In Los Angeles they went in some movies, they got two, three thousand dollars. Yes. [break] ...buy kilos when they're that big. So many of them.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. That will keep the water clean.
Jayapatāka: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But be careful that these rascals may not come and throw out, the Muhammadans. [break]
Jayapatāka: ...is growing on the water. And in the hot days they go in that.
Prabhupāda: No. That should be cleaned away.
Jayapatāka: Taken off.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can eat it, kalmisag. It is very nice.
Jayapatāka: Yes. We eat that. We shouldn't let it grow in the pokhara? It's growing in one little corner of the pokhara.
Prabhupāda: So that should be cleansed and taken, and the śak can be eaten.
Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]