Yaśomatīnandana: He will die by burning or something?
Girirāja: He was laughing when they were burning the steel rods. So Gāṇdīva's mother said, "In the same way you will also die by burning."
Dr. Patel: Who said?
Girirāja: Gāṇdīva's mother.
Dr. Patel: No, but who said like that for that... Really he got burned, you know?
Girirāja: Yes [indistinct]
Dr. Patel: This temple is his forefather's. And they were doing the śraddhā pūjā here. Then I knew that he died. He was a great, sort of a roguish man. His grandfather or somebody had some power to know things here and there, and people used to come and worship him and give him some money. But this man started fanning him exactly like this, sort of a [Hindi]. Parsis are coming very often. Parsis are very simple community.
Nara: He has committed suicide?
Dr. Patel: Yes, he has committed suicide, rightfully.
Nara: He was drinking and...
Dr. Patel: What was he not doing? What was he not doing? He was in all this sort a big debauch---mentally, physically, all sensually.
Prabhupāda: Why he committed suicide?
Dr. Patel: He burned himself by pouring kerosene on his clothes. You, Nara, you are here, no?
Nara: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So you must have seen.
Nara: [indistinct] I know that boy [indistinct].
Dr. Patel: His father was...
Nara: [indistinct] very good. [indistinct] [break]
Dr. Patel: All his sisters are not married excepting one. They are forty, forty-five years. But no one would have poor girls.
Nara: [indistinct] either man or woman. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...worldwide known...
Dr. Patel: In the Christian religion.
Nara: He was a loafer. He was not having two meals a day. Somehow he... [break]
Brahmānanda: Yaśomatīnandana has a book, and he would like to read a few sentences from that book.
Prabhupāda: Which is that book?
Brahmānanda: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: What is that book?
Brahmānanda: Well, we thought that we could play a game that Dr. Patel, he could identify who has written this book.
Prabhupāda: What is that book?
Dr. Patel: Please don't allow him to read. [laughter] Let us talk about Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Brahmānanda: This is Bhagavad-gītā.
Dr. Patel: You see, anything which is read out of context is no reading. You must read it reference to context. If you read some nonsense somebody must have spoken or written, he's not all what he has written or spoken. So if Yaśomatīnandana reads that and Prabhupādajī talks something about the spirituality, not this moment... Please. Because time is short and heart is long, and our heart is beating like muffled drums, so let us fulfill ourself before we die.
Prabhupāda: No, you have got your injection. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: That is not for me. I give only... [laughs] His wife was brought yesterday to me, Yaśodānandana, and she told me that she was operated in the stomach for some growth. "What sort of growth was that? Was it malignant?" And she's suffering. Why don't you send her back or get the reports from the American hospital, what operation was performed on her, and we'll get out? Or she'll suffer all the time. That is the story of injection. Now let us talk. [indistinct] Until you realize God, then you are spirit. Up to then, you are always...
Prabhupāda: "I am Indian." "I am American."
Dr. Patel: More important = "I am a human being and others are lower animals." That is the greatest abhimana.
Prabhupāda: No, that is also.
Dr. Patel: Abhimana.
Prabhupāda: That is also, what is called, false ego. Human being or animal, they are not different, because the body is made of the same ingredient. If you manufacture a dog like a dog, like a man, what is the difference? The ingredient is the same = earth.
Dr. Patel: Five bhūtas, pañca-bhūta.
Prabhupāda: Pañca-bhūta. So where is the difference? A man who knows, he will see so many dolls made of earth. He knows they are all earth. Ekatvam anupaśyataḥ [Īśo 7].
Dr. Patel:
brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
[Bg. 18.54]
Sum of it all, no?
Prabhupāda: First of all let me... Understand = This bodily transformation does not make any difference. Either it is made like a dog or it is made like a man, it is made from the earth. So one who knows the ingredient, he does not make any difference, because he knows the dog or the man made of the same ingredient. [aside] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. So next, first of all the body. The bodily conscious even...
Dr. Patel: He has come.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: He has gone to Goa.
Prabhupāda: Ah. The bodily consciousness is also material. That is also one. And the soul consciousness, spiritual, that is also one. That is ekatvam. So for a learned person there is no defect. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, paṇḍitaḥ samaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. This is the... So anyone who is under the bodily conception of life, either human being or dog, they are the same. But that upādhi amongst human being is stronger than the cats and dogs. The human being, being advanced in consciousness, they are making this nationalism. But it is nothing but dogism. Is it not? That's all. The so-called national people are sacrificing so many lives, so many politicians, Napoleon and these big, big leaders. But what is their business? Business is that doggish mentality = "I am this body." So it is very difficult to give up this doggish mentality that "I am this body." Very, very difficult.
Dr. Patel: That is ahaṅkāra.
Prabhupāda: False ahaṅkāra. Because he is not body, it is false ahaṅkāra. So śāstra therefore says, bhagavad-bhakti hīnasya jātiḥ japas tapaḥ kriya [Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11]. A person who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for him this advancement of nationality, big work, industry, so on, so on, so on, jati japas tapaḥ kriya... Kriya, these act...
Dr. Patel: Activities.
Prabhupāda: What are these? Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. It has no value. It has no value. But people are enamored by these things = "I belong to great nation. I am American. We have got so many industries. We have got so many cars." Attachment. So it is very difficult. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One, after becoming completely freed from all these false designations, to become a devotee is very, very difficult. There is no education.
Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means center is Kṛṣṇa. The elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśoda, their friends, their..., they are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are attracted to Kṛṣṇa, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The cows, calves, animals and peacock---everyone is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The water is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Who prevents them, sir? Māyā.
Prabhupāda: No. He wanted this; therefore māyā is there.
Dr. Patel: So that their position may go on.
Prabhupāda: Police is not first. First you become a thief; then police is there, not that police comes and arrest you unnecessarily. No. As soon as you become criminal, then police comes and arrest you. Māyā comes next. If you give up your natural attraction for Kṛṣṇa, if you are attracted by this material enjoyment, then māyā is there. Again if you try to...
Dr. Patel: But material, all material, is made up of māyā.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Nothing is made by māyā. Māyā is made by God.
Dr. Patel: And material is nothing but the transformation of māyā, is it not?
Prabhupāda: No. No. Māyā means something false. Nobody makes anything. Everything is made by... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything. Māyā is also created by Kṛṣṇa. So just like government creates police department, but police department is made for that person who violates the laws of God. The police department is creation of government. Similarly, māyā's business is to capture, arrest the criminal who has gone against God. Capture him. Mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Mam aprapyaiva. This is the arrangement. Nobody is independent. Everything. Therefore it is called sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. So māyā is also Brahman. Māyā is also Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Why māyā is different from God? It is creation of God. Mama māyā, Kṛṣṇa says. Mama māyā. So how māyā can be... The difference is, police cannot arrest the president. Now it has been proved in the law. The president, the prime minister, they cannot be interfered by the police or law. That is good judgment. If the head of the state is also interfered by police, that does not look well. So this judgment is very nice. Therefore in English constitution the first word is, "The king can do no wrong." You cannot accuse king of doing wrong. Whatever he does, it is all right.
Dr. Patel: That is when there was Rāma-rajya, sir. These modern fellows will talk all these things...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no. Rāma-rajya should be there as far as possible.
Dr. Patel: They are roguish fellows. Just like Nixon. What did he do? Was it in the place of king?
Prabhupāda: No, no, he... Nixon, Nixon...
Dr. Patel: Most powerful nation of the world having a leader of the type of Nixon.
Prabhupāda: So that is... Of course, in American constitution the president is also impeached. Is it the law?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: This is the first president who was impeached, during all the times.
Prabhupāda: But that is not very good law. That is not very good law. If the president also can be impeached, that is not very good law.
Dr. Patel: Sir, if the government is made according to the rule and regulations established by our religions, then that president or the king is above law. Otherwise these fools must be within law. But the way they have been ruling the countries and ransacking the people's morals and material...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone, anyone who is within law, he cannot be president.
Dr. Patel: But these are within the law, president. These are the artificial constitutions made up, not the constitution as given by Vedas and Vedic religions. Then king or president is above law, sir---to my mind. I may be wrong. I am open to correction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we want rājarṣi. We don't want ordinary king. Rājarṣi.
Dr. Patel: Then it is all right.
Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2].
Dr. Patel: Ah, that was rājarṣis. A king like Janaka.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone should be rājarṣi. Otherwise he has no power to become king. He should be rejected. There are instances. Just like Vena Mahārāja. He was not rājarṣi, so he was killed by the brāhmaṇas: "Get down." There are instances. Then Pṛthu Mahārāja became king.
Dr. Patel: Pṛthu was the incarnation of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So king is supposed to be representative of God, if not incarnation.
Dr. Patel: That's right. Then he is above law.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because God is above law. But these people are representatives of the foolish, ignorant majority, and majority is made up of fools. Wise people are few.
Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. [aside:] Jaya. Fools' paradise. Eh?
Dr. Patel: That's right. We are living in fools' paradise. If the whole today universe was governed as it is ordained by Vedas and Vedic philosophy and laws, there would not have been any difficulty for us. But from time immemorial, even in the very place of the cradle of Vedic civilization, there were all these types of wars and [Hindi] and daityas and devas and all these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got some... [break] Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy to make everyone the first-class human being. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair guṇair tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you want to qualify the human society with all good qualities, then bhagavad-bhakti is the only means. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: That is correct, sir. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto yājī [Bg. 18.65]. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupāda: So unfortunately nobody is interested. This is the only remedy, and nobody is interested. Rather, they will put blocks in the progress. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: If the modern politicians of the world follow the teaching of even Mahābhārata and śānti-parva, there will be śānti all over. What is your opinion, sir? That is sufficient if they don't go ahead further.
Prabhupāda: Śānti means to become devotee. Otherwise there is no question of. Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati [Bg. 5.29]. That is śānti. If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, where is śānti? Kuto śānty ayuktasya. Even Dhruva Mahārāja, he was... He became too much restless, being insulted by stepmother. He went to the forest, but there was no śānti. He was always restless. Nārada Muni came, advised him that "You are a child. Why you are so much agitated by so-called insult, family talks?" And "No, I don't want your advice." He refused. Then Nārada Muni gave him initiation, that "This boy is very strong." But actually, when he realized God, then he became svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42] = "My dear Lord, now I am fully satisfied. I have no desire." This is śānti. Even mokṣa-vaṁcha is not śānti, because there is demand = "I want mokṣa." The karmīs, they want sense gratification; the jñānīs, they want liberation; the yogīs, they want mystic power, aṣṭa-siddhi. Only the devotee, he doesn't want. He wants only to serve Kṛṣṇa. [plane flying over] It is going so low.
Dr. Patel: This is a Jumbo.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: Shall I go?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya. [break]
Devotee (1): Can you explain more about the sthita-dhīr muni, the undisturbed sage? In the purport you explain how he is neither attached nor detached. What is that, that he is neither one or the other?
Prabhupāda: There are two things in this material world = attachment and detachment. Somebody is attached. The karmīs, everyone, is working. Why so hard? There is attachment. The jñānīs, they are renouncing = brahma satya jagan mithyā. So a devotee is always satisfied in any condition. He has no attachment or detachment.
Devotee (1): He is simply attached to serving Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: That is attachment, of course, but not for any purpose. He's simply surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and whatever Kṛṣṇa will do, that's all right. Personally he has no attachment. Suppose Kṛṣṇa wants to do him something which he doesn't like to do; still he has to do. Just as Arjuna. He did not like to fight, but still, because he understood, "Kṛṣṇa wants," then he fought. This is neither attachment nor detachment. Actually it is... It was not liked by him. But he did it because Kṛṣṇa wanted. Therefore, personally he has no attachment or detachment. If Kṛṣṇa is attached to something, then he becomes attached. If Kṛṣṇa is detached to something, he becomes detached. That is bhakta's principle. Personally he is neutral. [break] ...the difference between karmī and bhakta. Karmī is attached and detached for his own purpose, and bhakta is attached and detached for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Personally he has no attachment or detachment. Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. There are two kinds of principles = attachment and detachment. So mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So this material attachment and detachment one should give up. He should surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is bhakta's principle. [pause] So there is no cloud in the sky, eh? Completely clear. [break] ...the sea-going is not dangerous. It is very calm and quiet?
Brahmānanda: Sea?
Prabhupāda: Sea. Yes.
Brahmānanda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: I started during monsoon, [laughs] in September.
Brahmānanda: Here it's monsoon and then...
Prabhupāda: Not September, August.
Brahmānanda: August. And in the Atlantic that's the hurricane season.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.
Brahmānanda: On the Atlantic Ocean, that's the hurricane season. It's the worst season.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So when I landed in New York---[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa---the captain said that "It is astonishing there was no hurricane in that line." I did not know. He at last, he said. Captain said that he was very much anxious, "What will happen in Atlantic? This svāmī is already seasick." [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (2): [Hindi conversation] [break]
Prabhupāda: Such kind of religious system is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ. Kaitava means cheating. To cheat God or to be cheated by God, this kind of religion is rejected. But people are very much fond of that kind of religion by which the God is cheated and he is cheated. He will commit all kinds of sins and he will be excused. That means God is cheated. And if he thinks that "I will go on committing sinful; God will excuse me," that is also cheating. He is cheating himself, as if God is so fool that he will go on committing sin and God will excuse. These are cheating. This is not religion. God is personally speaking, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28], and he is thinking that "I will go on committing sinful activities and God will excuse." Why God will excuse? This is foolishness. He can excuse once, twice, thrice, but as a matter of routine he will commit sinful activities and God will excuse---this is all nonsense.
Parīkṣit Mahārāja has condemned this process. He has compared the kuñjara saucavat. Kuñjara means elephant. The elephant takes bath in the river or in the lake very minutely, becomes very cleansed. And as soon as he will come on the shore, he takes some dust and... You will find this. He's such a big animal, but he has no sense that "Now I have washed all dirty things. Again I am taking dirt?" So this kind of knowledge, that "Cleanse yourself by doing prāyaścitta, and again unclean." If you have cleansed yourself, then keep yourself clean. Why you are uncleaning again? This is foolishness. [break] "What is this, pious activities and sinful activities? These are all old, primitive ideas. Now we are advanced." [Hindi] [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya [break] ...was surfing introduced as [Hindi] ...surfing sport... [Hindi] [break] ...that toothpaste within the box?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is old. The new one, where it is? Now finished?
Harikeśa: No, they are also in the shaving kit.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So the new one, it is all dried up with glycerin. If they are finished, then prepare to the same formula. [break]
Indian man (3): ...not taking bath in the morning. I was not coming to the temple because my bronchitis. And once you told me, "You take without bath. You go to the temple." I started taking bath. I was now coming to the sea because that bronchitis was troubling me. But now... [Hindi] My wife told me, "Don't go. You are a sick man. You are not taking my instr..." I said, "No, it will be Kṛṣṇa's mercy only." I am ninety percent happy. Once I give some [indistinct]. Still I think I am, by your grace, I am ninety percent cured now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa's grace.
Indian man (3): Still in a congregation when I sit means I get some phlegm. That is why.
Prabhupāda: Do you feel any inconvenience while walking?
Indian man (3): No.
Prabhupāda: No, no, for bronchitis this open air is very good.
Indian man (3): Good. Ah. That is good. During night, I can't get sleep, so if I go in the evening to the sea, so morning I think... Four days, I am better.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. Even if you cannot walk, you can sit down and breathe the open air. [break] Progress is going on?
Saurabha: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: Temple foundation is fixed up?
Saurabha: The laying concrete, one third has been done, and today we start setting up the columns, steel work. [end]