Prabhupāda: Gaṇapati, Viṣṇu, Lord Śiva, Sūrya and Devī.
Dr. Patel: No, there are no Devī's here.
Prabhupāda: No, Devī's... But their principle is this, that "God incarnation, impersonal. You imagine some form." Sādhakānāṁ hitvārthāya brahmaṇo rūpa-kalpanaḥ.
Dr. Kalpana: [Hindi] They have got one Datta.
Dr. Kalpana: Dattātreya, yes. Then no doubt there is Hanumān because of the Rāma Mandir. Then there is Gaṇapati. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...goats before Kāla-bhairava.
Dr. Kalpana: It is, I mean, great description in Śiva Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Every, every demigod...
Dr. Patel: No, Devī Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: ...has got some description in different Purāṇas.
Dr. Patel: This is in Devī Purāṇa, Bhairava-Bhāryā
Prabhupāda: There are sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika Purāṇa. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is mahā-purāṇa. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): [Hindi] [break]
Dr. Patel: Any air conditioning. Air conditioning is not necessary. [break]
Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyār vaibhava, tomāra bhajane badha. Māyā means forgetfulness of God. This is māyā. Māyā means the more you forget Kṛṣṇa, the more you are involved in māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So māyā's business is to cover you more and more as you forget Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā's business. So therefore, expansion of māyā's influence means forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Tomāra bhajane badha. They're all the hindrances only to make spiritual progress and to understand God.
So what is the net result? The net result is anitya saṁsāre, moha janmeiyā. We are already attached to this material world, which is temporary. By this expansion of māyā's influence we become more attached. Attachment is already there, but we become more and more attached. In this way, jība ke karaye gāḍha. So he is already ass; he becomes first-class ass. That's all. [laughter] Is that all right?
Dr. Patel: Completely.
Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has analyzed, "He is already an ass," sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]---khara means ass---"but he becomes a first-class ass." So you'll find all these rascals, materialists, they are all first-class asses, that's all. Every day you'll find they are discovering new theory, new theory = "Atom, electron, this-tron, that-tron." Not the jīvātmā. They remain the same ass, first-class ass, scientific ass. They are finding out so many atoms, electrons, this-tron, that-tron, not that one ten-thousandth part of God. That they cannot find. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgo sa vijñeyaḥ. They have not come to that point, that one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair is the jīva, living entity. They have not come to that, neither they'll be able to come to that, because they remain ass, more and more ass, first-class ass, A.I. ass, O.K. ass, and then going on, the quality of ass.
Dr. Patel: When the atom bomb was exploded, Sir Rutherford of England said that "This is nothing but the mental process. Real process somewhere else." He has spoke these words.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Highest scientist.
Prabhupāda: They are finding out a small particle, particle, particle, still going on. You were reading me the other day? So...
Dr. Patel: Small particle than the...
Prabhupāda: But the real particle they have not found. Real particle is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That they have not found.
Brahmānanda: They find these particles in their machines called atom-smashers. They take atoms and they smash them together...
Prabhupāda: But that measure means still they are measuring material. Apareyam. These are all aparā. They cannot come to that. Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām [Bg. 7.5]. There is another atom. That, these rascals, they do not know, neither they'll be able to come out. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam: "These are all material." Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: "There is another atom." [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. And where is that science? Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: And that atom, jīva-bhutaḥ, that is living entity. That, the rascals, they do not know. They're still hovering upon material particles.
Dr. Patel: No, but they get inkling of real higher source of all these things...
Prabhupāda: No, higher...
Dr. Patel: ...slowly and slowly. They have their own way.
Prabhupāda: If you do not know what is that higher...
Dr. Patel: They have tried to know, sir.
Prabhupāda: This kind of will not help them. No, no. That is the... That is there. They'll not know. Panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām, so 'pyasti yat-prapada-sīmny avicintya tattve [Bs. 5.34]. Still it will remain inconceivable. These rascals, they do not know that. You have to simply hear from Kṛṣṇa that there is another atom, apareyam. These are inferior. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another atom. What is that? That is jīva-bhūtaḥ. You have to take this knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, not by searching out. How you can find out one ten-thousandth part of it? It is not possible. You have no machine, no source of knowledge.
Brahmānanda: These particles that they have just recently found, the life-span is incredibly small---one-millionth of a trillionth of a second.
Brahmānanda: That's their life-span.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Life...
Dr. Patel: How they measured it?
Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, we have to believe. That's all. [laughter] Except Kṛṣṇa, we shall believe everything. When Kṛṣṇa says something = "No, no, these are all fictitious. There is no Kṛṣṇa, and these are all imagination." And as a rascal says, "Oh, this is scientific." This is going on. So we are not so fools that we shall believe these scientific rascals. We believe Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not going to believe the scientific rascals.
Dr. Patel: All, all good, these do good, sir. I believe you should not be very harsh to the scientist. I am sorry...
Prabhupāda: They are not scientists; they are rascals. I don't accept them as scientists. They, if they are putting forward theories every day, what kind of scientist? They are not scientist. Scientist means fixed-up idea. It cannot be changed. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is scientist. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20].
Harikeśa: Just consider how great they are. They've managed to isolate one little tiny electron and one little tiny positron, and then they send one one way, and they send one the other way, and then they meet and they smash.
Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit?
Harikeśa: But that's so difficult to do, you know. There are so many things get in the way.
Prabhupāda: So you can... Difficult to do, you can count even... It is very difficult to count this sand. Can you count? It is very difficult. But you can waste your time in counting. [laughter] You are rascal; you can go on = "I shall count how many." But it is not possible. So that is rascaldom. Which is not possible, that we'll get. Now it is... Everyone knows there are some particles. Now you go on counting. Don't eat. Don't sleep. Go on counting. And śāstra says, "Even if you are able to count this, you'll not be able to know God, even if you are able." This is not possible to count, but even if you become so expert that you can count one day, still it will be avicintya tattva. That is... There is a verse that even one day you become the rolled sky... The sky is so big. You can roll it just like you roll up your bedding. And even if you can, all the atoms constituted, still you'll not be possible to know, understand God.
Dr. Patel: Because their main hypothesis is... That is near the mind.[?]
Prabhupāda: Yes. So avāṅ-mānasa-gocaraḥ. You cannot have it. Śruti-pramāṇam. You have to hear from the authority. Jaya. So if you want to waste your time in that way, you can do that. And next birth you become a dog. That's all. This human life you waste in this way, dog's obstinacy; Kṛṣṇa will say, "All right, come on. You become a dog." Human life... Even Cānakya Paṇḍita says, āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ: "Even one part of your duration of life, one moment, you cannot get it back again in exchange of millions of golden coins." Svarṇa-kotibhiḥ. Sa cet nirarthakam: "If you waste that time unnecessarily, then you do not know what you are losing, even from material point of view." This is Vedic civilization = not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized, especially for the human being. It's so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing---simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing. How they have invented means of...
Brahmānanda: Fishing also.
Prabhupāda: Fishing. Yes, all old men, they are sitting hours and hours for capturing one fish. [laughter] Just see their civilization.
Dr. Patel: Because they are body conscious, sir.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we see that how they have invented various ways of wasting time, which is so valuable. That is our view.
Indian man: To them time is nothing because time is eternity after all.
Prabhupāda: Time is eternity, but your formation is not eternity. Your formation is temporary. Time is eternity. [aside:] Thank you. No. Time is eternity, that's a fact, but your formation... Asann api kleśada āsa deha. It is temporary. That's all right. You know, I know, everyone. But it will simply give you pains, although it is asat. That you do not know. Time is... Body is temporary, but so long the body is there, you have to suffer. That body may be a ant's body or Brahma's body. So as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer and go on examining urine and stool. [laughter] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...and that is good wealth. And take some urine and find out, "Here is life." That's all. They are examining very scientifically. Why don't you...? The dead man's urine, if you examine and find out some injection and give it in life. Life is gone away, soul, and they are finding out life from the urine. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...but it is very reasonable. They are finding out so many atoms, particles, but in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that all these atoms are aparā, inferior. Find out the parā, the superior atom. That is life. [Hindi conversation] But you cannot bring in life by so-called mantras. That is not possible. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] [break] ...can write to these particle men that "You are finding so many, but there is another particle which is one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. Find out that. That is life. That is superior." And quote Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: another atom. Give them information at least. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa's message. Simply by reading one book, Bhagavad-gītā, you become learned. [break]
Brahmānanda: Scientists will say that "We cannot find this jīva particle in our atom-smasher machines."
Prabhupāda: But you are blind. Therefore you have to hear. A blind man is going forward towards the sea, so one who has got eyes, he'll say, "Don't go there." Then, if you go, go to the sea, you'll die. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Because you are blind, therefore I am giving you the information. You take it. You don't go there. You'll not find.
Brahmānanda: But they do not think that they are blind.
Prabhupāda: That is the disease. That is the disease. A diseased man never thinks that he is diseased. He thinks, "I am quite all right." But a physician will say, "Oh, no, no, you are diseased." He says, "I am quite all right." Cancer. And then, after few days, finished. They do not know that "Why I am dying?" They think death is natural. But Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. They have no brain to inquire that here is information that even after the destruction, the jīva does not die. But he does not inquire. He says, "Death is natural. Let me die." This is blind. They agree to die. And Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: "There is no death even after destruction..." They will not inquire about this. So blind. So blind. This should be inquiry, that "If it is a fact that even after destruction of the body I do not die, then what is that position?" That inquiry is also not there. They are so fool. That is human life, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the spirit soul. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Hindi] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. [break] Bhelpurī? Very popular. Yes. Picnic.
Harikeśa: The scientists will say that their particles are smaller than one ten-thousandth the tip of a hair.
Prabhupāda: First of all find out one ten-thousandth. Then talk. Find out.
Harikeśa: They make measurements with..., to the twenty-second power, like a decimal point and twenty-two zeroes and then a one. [pause] We were just talking about quarks.
Harikeśa: Quark. Yes. The quark is the... There are things called hedons [hadrons], and the quark is the smallest possible combination of elements that make a hedon [hadron], which makes up the protons and electrons. They haven't seen them yet. They just thought they might be there.
Prabhupāda: Again, "might be," "maybe." [break]
Harikeśa: We were wondering, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about all these people they are keeping alive artificially in the boxes. They have so many people in boxes in the hospitals they are keeping alive. So the big battle is raging whether or not they should pull out the plug.
Prabhupāda: Keeping life?
Harikeśa: They have these artificial machines that pump blood and breathe and digest food, and they pump everything into the body and they keep it alive. So all the scientists are wondering if they should pull out the plugs because it wastes so much money.
Saurabha: There is some disease now that people enter in some coma, and with the machine they keep them alive for thirty years. There's some lady, she is already thirty machines..., thirty years...
Prabhupāda: So it's still limited, thirty years, not permanently.
Saurabha: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the solution? What is the solution? If after thirty years it is going to be collapsed, then what is the use?
Devotee (1): But it's the moral problem that they're having, isn't it? Not the sickness, but the moral problem of either killing off one person or letting him continue to survive.
Prabhupāda: Well, they have no moral. They are killing so many persons. That is killing. That is not... They are expert in killing.
Saurabha: But they're afraid to take decision. They're very much confused.
Harikeśa: They're afraid to take a decision whether to kill them or not by pulling out the plug.
Prabhupāda: You take decision or not, he will be killed. That you cannot say. You are becoming very much moralist, whether to kill, but it will be killed. You cannot save him. That is not possible.
Harikeśa: So they should just keep the machines going?
Prabhupāda: No, they should stop this nonsense and save money. That's all. Therefore they are called rascals. It will not be persisting. It is temporary. So why should you spend money? That is intelligence.
Saurabha: They have examined those people, and they say they have the same symptoms as plant life.
Saurabha: Not more than that.
Prabhupāda: And in our list the plants are there. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati [Padma Purāna]. Sthāvara means plants. There are jalajā, aquatics, and sthāvara means plant. All living entities, different forms... Bhagavad-gītā says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. As many forms are there of living entities. But what are these forms? Forms means the spirit soul is one, and he is covered by these material elements. That is form. So either your form or my form, but the ingredients are the same, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. [break] The soul is the same, and the ingredients of the body are the same. That is explained in Iśo..., ekatvam anupaśyate. Just like from gold, take from the mine---you make earring or this finger ring, the ingredients are the same. The forms may be different. [break] ...Apollo airship, thousands of technologists and scientists were engaged to make this Apollo, and it burst out. So they have no foreseeing power that it will burst out. At that time they began to pray to God.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think President Ford said, "Every American should pray to God."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When that Apollo thing, it was burst, he said. He said we should all pray to God.
Prabhupāda: Why God? Why not scientist? [laughter] Pray to scientist. Why the order was for God, not for the scientist? Churchill also, when the war condition was very, very severe---they were going to be finished---then he asked everyone to go to church and pray. That "V"? "V"? Victory = "For victory, go and pray."
Harikeśa: Well, they were thinking God was on their side.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are thinking of God, but in a different way, that "God is my order supplier. God is not to be worshiped, but He has to supply as I order." That's all. [break]
Brahmānanda: ...this book written by one priest during the war. The name of the book was Somebody Up There Likes Me, referring to God.
Prabhupāda: Still he did not dare to utter the name of God.
Brahmānanda: No, he said "somebody."
Brahmānanda: Somebody Up There Likes Me.
Prabhupāda: As soon as he had written "God likes me," nobody would purchase it. [laughter] Nobody. He is clever---"Somebody."
Harikeśa: One devotee asked me, "If the scientists don't know anything about the universe, then how is it they can predict exactly when there is going to be an eclipse of the sun or the moon for hundreds of years in advance?"
Prabhupāda: That is very preliminary knowledge. That is not... Just like you can predict that after two months there will be winter. That does not mean that you are very advanced scientist. [laughter] Any child can say. The rascal predicted that there is some comet, and it never appeared. You see? So therefore they are rascals. What is already scheduled, everyone knows. He can say that. [break] ...story about Kālidāsa. Kālidāsa was such a fool. It is a long story. It will take time. So he was sitting on a branch of a tree and cutting. So some intelligent man came, was passing = "Oh, you rascal, you'll fall down." So he did not care. He would go on. And when he actually fell down, he, "Oh, you are so nice astrologer." What is astrology? It is a commonsense. If I say, "At six o'clock in the evening there will be no sun," [laughter] is that astrology? Even it is astrology, this astrology is known to everyone. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]
Indian man (2): ...of anecdote where gopīs, you know? When gopīs' dress were taken by Kṛṣṇa, He wanted these gopīs to give away all their humility and humbleness, to show everything. "Then only, unless you surrender to Me, you cannot have any salvation." So when they took out all their dress and then went prostrated before Him without any dress, then only they have become muktas. Like that Draupadī also. When Duḥśāsana...
Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī interpretation.
Indian man (2): No, that is what I...
Prabhupāda: Why should you interpret? Gopīs prayed Kṛṣṇa and all the Kātyāyanī devī that "Let Kṛṣṇa become our husband." So Kṛṣṇa fulfilled their desire because a woman can become naked only before husband. That is the purport, no other interpretation. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when that so many gopīs, girls, "So you wanted Me as your husband? All right, I become your husband." That's all. Because for a woman there is no shame before husband. So this was acceptance of husband. And so far renouncing everything, they had already done that. Therefore we take everything śāstra as it is, no interpretation. Then, simply by making oneself naked, he would have gone to Vṛndāvana. They interpret. These Māyāvādīs, they interpret in so many ways just to make the statement of Bhāgavata a story. This is their real purpose. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Hindi with passerby] Without being liberated, can anyone expect to become wife of Kṛṣṇa? They were already liberated. These interpretation are there only to minimize the value of Kṛṣṇa and the value of gopīs. Māyāvāda bhāṣya sunile haya sarva nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has warned, "If you hear the comments by the Māyāvādīs, then you are finished."
Harikeśa: Why do people use spiritual things for material enjoyment when material enjoyment is available by itself?
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. It looks like material, but it is not material. Completely spiritual. Your body is moving on spiritual strength, but you have no eyes to see spiritual strength. You see the body. And when the spirit goes away, you cry, "My father has gone away." Why "My father has..."? Your father is there. The body is there. So you have no spiritual vision = therefore you are thinking that gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa is also material. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍha [Bg. 9.11]. This is mūḍha's business. They are thinking spiritual activities of Kṛṣṇa as material. That is avajānanti. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Paraṁ bhāvam, the spiritual activities, they do not know. Therefore it is forbidden for materialistic person to hear about gopīs' pastimes with Kṛṣṇa. It is forbidden, that's all, because the rascal will take it as material.
[break] ...Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī and other Gosvāmīs, they left everything in the material world. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha... They gave up everything. Bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna, gopī-bhāvāmṛta... Then, in Vṛndāvana, they were thinking of the gopīs' līlā. So after giving up all these things, again they were thinking of material things? Gopī-bhāvāmṛtābdhi-lahari-kallola-magnau. So they were thinking of gopīs' pastimes with Kṛṣṇa. So after giving up everything material, again material? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ramyād kaścid upāsanā vraja-vadhubhir yā kalpitā. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after so much renunciation, so much vairāgya and strict following the sannyāsa rule, again He is recommending gopī? This is foolishness. Gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa is completely spiritual. They do not understand. They think it is material. Therefore it is better not to go there. First of all become experienced in spiritual life; then try to understand gopīs' līlā. [break]
Devotee (3): You were speaking about the blind person who is thinking that he can see. He is in illusion. How can we best convince him that he is not able to see?
Prabhupāda: You have to convince him that "Your eyes are imperfect." Then you can tell, "Just close your eyes. Can you see the eyelid? It closes, but you cannot see. Why? You have got eyes. When there is some particle in the eye, so close and find out where is the particle. Why making this way, this way, this way? So what is the value of your eyes?" This is the proof. "You cannot see even your eyelids. So why do... Why you are so much proud of seeing?" Is it not?
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is conviction. He can say that "I cannot see, on account of distant place, the planet," but you see the nearest. So you cannot see distant place things and you cannot see nearest. Then what is the value of your eyes? That means you can see only under certain condition. So condition is offered by somebody else. Therefore you are conditioned. Your seeing is conditioned, because it is not absolute. So how do you believe your eyes? Hmm?
Devotee (3): The vision of the eyes is imperfect. We have to see by intelligence, from the authority...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not intelligence; that is fact. Intelligence you should have, that "However I can perceive by the senses, the senses being imperfect, all our perceptions are imperfect." That is intelligence.
Devotee (3): Then one may ask, "Well, how do I recognize that this is the bona fide authority?"
Prabhupāda: Who authorized? Another rascal, that's all. He's a rascal, another rascal. Just like sva-vid-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. A lion is being praised by the rabbit in the jungle. The rabbit is also animal; lion is also. So what is the use of a lion being praised by a rabbit? If the lion is praised by a rabbit, does it mean lion is more than animal? So similarly, these so-called scientists, big men, they are being praised by small rascals. That does not mean on account of praising he has become more than animal. He remains animal.
Devotee (3): We see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they see Him as a common man like themselves also.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are mūḍhas. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Only the mūḍhas can deride. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. It is stated already.
Devotee (3): Then how is it that some people do finally come to accept Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They come in the paramparā system, through guru. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore you have to go to guru to understand. You cannot understand personally. That is not possible. Therefore our system is to see through the guru and śāstra, not by these naked eyes. That is misleading.
Devotee (3): Then the key would be to recognize and appreciate the importance of the guru.
Prabhupāda: Parampara. Guru is also not authority by himself. He is authority by his guru, paramparā. If he is coming in the paramparā system, then he is guru. Otherwise he's not guru. Just like what we are doing? We are simply repeating the Kṛṣṇa's word. That's all. Therefore guru. And as soon as I make addition or alteration, I am goru.
Harikeśa: Goru means?
Prabhupāda: Goru means cow, animal. Go-kharaḥ. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. The go-kharaḥ, these animals have been, I mean, exemplified because these two animals work for others very heavily. The bull also loads heavily, and the ass also loads very heavily---for others, not for his own benefit. The bull is working day and night and being whipped... [break] [end]