Śrutakīrti: [introducing recording] The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk, which takes place in Melbourne, Australia, Botanical Gardens on May 22, 1975. [break]
Madhudviṣa: ...the area since 1900.
Madhudviṣa: And he was telling me that the house that you are living in, Prabhupāda House, was built in 1885.
Madhudviṣa: 1885, and at that time it was the only house in the whole area for miles around. And it was built by one judge called Morritt, Judge Morritt. And it was the only house in... They called it "Morritt's folly," "Morritt's folly," because it was built on the sand, and no one thought it could stand for so long. It was built... Because this whole area here was sand, it was all beach, and it was the only house there, and he had stables and very extensive holdings there.
Prabhupāda: Judge. He was judge.
Madhudviṣa: He was a judge, yes. And he import... He went to great extent to build the house. It was during this boom area, when...
Prabhupāda: Englishmen were coming.
Madhudviṣa: Yeah, the Englishmen were coming, and because Queen Victoria was there..., the king had died, so the order was passed that no one could buy any, I think, jewelry for their wives.
Madhudviṣa: It was something... The English frowned upon buying jewelry and ornaments for the women. So the men were using their money to build big houses.
Madhudviṣa: So therefore during the Victorian area, era, you have many elaborate houses that were built by the Britishers. And he...
Prabhupāda: Victoria died in 1903.
Madhudviṣa: He was said to have brought some Italian plasterers from Italy to do all that elaborate work on the ceilings in the house.
Madhudviṣa: So many people are anxious to come into the house to see the work in the construction of the house. And it has been classified as a building of national importance.
Prabhupāda: Oh. The building is known everywhere.
Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes. It is important building. They cannot... It is not allowed to be torn down. It is protected by the...
Madhudviṣa: Historical building. It is protected by the government.
Śrutakīrti: Yesterday you were telling Bhūrijana they should make the temple a tourist attraction. So with this method, it would be very easy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [coughs]
Śrutakīrti: Roll down the window. Prabhupāda needs... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the demonic, they construct very nice house.
[break] [on walk] ...this planet, there are seven other planets. There, sunshine does not go. But they are very well situated.
Madhudviṣa: Well situated? Even though there's no sun?
Prabhupāda: Yes, but there are snakes which has got jewel on the head. That light keeps them illuminated.
Madhudviṣa: But does that light also keep them healthy?
Madhudviṣa: Like the sun gives us..., keeps us healthy.
Madhudviṣa: So the jewels from the snakes can also provide that nutrition?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Paramahaṁsa: So those snakes are very important. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...plans. They had to work very hard to find out, "What is this? What is this?" So that is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye [SB 10.14.4] = "Working hard simply to know." Kliśyanti. Kliśyanti means working very hard, labor, kevala-bodha-labdhaye, simply to understand. But they are not kliśyanti to understand God. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. This kind of knowledge is compared with beating the bush, that's all. After taking away the paddy grains, only the skin remains. And if you again beat the skin to get grains, that is not possible.
Paramahaṁsa: Beating the husk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is like that. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. [break]
Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, I have seen in New Zealand that the dairy farmers, they cut the tails off the cows.
Devotee (2): The farmers have cut the tails off the cows in New Zealand.
Devotee (2): Yeah, they cut the tails off so that when they're milking, the tails won't hit them in the face. They do this to all their cows in the milking sheds.
Prabhupāda: For what purpose? The tail, cut the tails?
Śrutakīrti: When you milk the cow, they sometimes hit you in the face with their tail.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh.
Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes it's very dangerous. They can hurt your eye or something.
Śrutakīrti: In New Vrindaban sometimes they tie it to the ceiling. But not cutting. [break]
Madhudviṣa: ...comprised of spirit souls, unlimited amounts of shining spirit souls?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Combination.
Madhudviṣa: Combination. Of something else besides...?
Prabhupāda: Impersonalists, they do not accept personal feature. Means they fall down again.
Madhudviṣa: That means there must be a lot of impersonalists.
Madhudviṣa: It seems there would be a lot of impersonalists.
Prabhupāda: No. More than them, there are personalists. They are in Vaikuṇṭhaloka. [break]
Devotee (3): ...in the material world.
Devotee (3): Is there any real happiness?
Prabhupāda: That is material world---no happiness.
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the advantage of going to India, to Vṛndāvana?
Devotee (4): What is the advantage of going...
Prabhupāda: To get impetus to go back to home, back to Godhead. To come to Australia, we get impetus to go to hell. [laughter] [break] Hell means anywhere where material happiness is given more importance. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi... [SB 5.5.2]. In the Western countries and..., they are simply busy in sense gratification. So that is the way of hell. [break]
Devotee (5): ...said that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God."
Devotee (5): You have said, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." Well, um, what I want to know is, is not God eternal? Therefore how was there a beginning? And if the beginning was the word, who was it spoken by or how was it spoken if it was the beginning?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? In the beginning there was word. So what is the difficulty to understand?
Paramahaṁsa: He's saying if everything is eternal, then how was there a beginning?
Prabhupāda: Beginning of this material world. This material world has beginning and end. Just like this material season, it has beginning and end. [aside:] Hmm. This is troublesome.
Madhudviṣa: There should be flowers all over there.
Madhudviṣa: ...to make you garlands. [break]
Prabhupāda: This beginning and end, that is troublesome. So in the material body, it has beginning and end. Therefore it is... But they do not understand it. They think, "It is all right." I don't want to end this body, but there is end. Neither I want to begin, but there is beginning. That is the trouble. But we are so dull-headed, we do not understand that anything which has beginning and end, that is troublesome. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19] = "It begins and ends." That requires intelligence, that "I am eternal. Why should I accept anything which has beginning and end?" That is intelligence.
Devotee (6): Was there a time when there was no material world?
Devotee (6): Was there a time when there was no material world?
Prabhupāda: No, no. The material world in potency is always there. But it has got a manifestation beginning, and again end. It begins from God, and again it ends in God. But God is eternal. [break] ...feeling of your, it is manifested, and sometimes it is not manifested. But the feeling potency is there. Just like sometimes I become angry and sometimes not angry, but the potency of becoming angry is there. That is eternal. Similarly, the material world, the material energy, or the material nature, is permanent, but it is sometimes manifest, sometimes not manifest. It is now manifest. It will end. Again, another body you will manifest, and it will end. But I am eternal.
Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The spirit is supposed to be stronger than matter. The spirit is superior than matter. So it seems that... Well, what happens when the body dies? Is the spirit forced to leave, or does it leave on its own accord?
Prabhupāda: No, it is by nature forced.
Madhudviṣa: But that is material.
Madhudviṣa: Isn't nature material?
Prabhupāda: Yes, material nature, yes.
Madhudviṣa: So how is material forcing something spiritual?
Prabhupāda: You have voluntarily accept her supremacy. Just like you have accepted some disease. The disease is forcing you. And if you cure, then it will not be able to force you. You infect some disease, then you become forced by the disease to accept the miseries. But if you are not diseased, there is no question of force. If you become criminal, the police forces you. And if you are not criminal, you have no business with the police. It is like this. Police control, controller---the controlling power upon me comes when I am criminal. Otherwise, why police will control me? Therefore I voluntarily accept the control of police by my criminal desires. That is going on. That is material life.
Madhudviṣa: But would that mean that a person who is a pure devotee doesn't have to die?
Prabhupāda: No, die... Pure or nonpure, nobody dies.
Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies. But a pure devotee...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things, then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to... But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.
Devotee (7): Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul?
Prabhupāda: Then that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa Himself. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master.
Devotee (8): Śrīla Prabhupāda, many people who live outside the temple have Jagannātha deities and Gaura-Nitāi Deities.
Devotee (8): Many people who live outside the temple have Jagannātha deities and...
Prabhupāda: Better Gaura-Nitāi Deities.
Devotee (8): Huh?
Prabhupāda: Better Gaura-Nitāi.
Devotee (8): So they have to do full Deity worship when they have these Deities?
Devotee (8): So they have to do full Deity worship to have these Deities? Dress the Deities every day?
Prabhupāda: They are supposed to do so, but whether they are able to do so, that is the point. If you can worship properly, that's all right. But whether you are able to worship?
Devotee (7): Prabhupāda, can a person go back to a spiritual planet without initiation?
Devotee (7): Can a person go back to a spiritual planet...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no more init... Initiation here required when the living entity is in darkness. Just like uneducated person requires to go to school. One who is educated, in his full knowledge, he doesn't go.
Madhudviṣa: The question was, Prabhupāda, is it possible for a person to return to the spiritual world without taking initiation from a bona fide spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī said, ādau gurv-āśrayam [Brs. 1.1.74]. First business is to accept spiritual master. Ādau gurv-āśrayam. Who will train him? He is already fool, rascal. He must be trained up. So he must be trained up by the representative of Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (9): Is second initiation necessary, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Second or first initiation.
Devotee (9): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are you saying? You said before there's no necessity for a spiritual master, and now you...
Paramahaṁsa: He said in the spiritual world there is no necessity.
Devotee (9): Oh, in the spiritual world.
Paramahaṁsa: Everyone is in full knowledge. In the material world everyone is in darkness.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya Gaura Nitai! [break]
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it appears that there is a group of persons here in Australia who think, judging from the different questions that are being asked, they are thinking that it is not required to formally accept...
Prabhupāda: There are so many rascal svāmīs come. They say like that, "There is no need of guru."
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, right. They think that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and you can accept initiation by that way.
Prabhupāda: You do not know where to find out Kṛṣṇa in the heart. [end]