[Poor audio for first 1:30 Minutes]
Prabhupada: Breaking the law.
Amogha: ...unleash the dog.
Prabhupada: ... And the master. They should be chained, and they're let lose.
Amogha: They think that catching fish is great sport, great fun.
Prabhupada: What bussiness. They haven't got any business. They must do all of these sinful activities. That is the defect of the modern civilization---keeping all men in darkness.
Jayadharma: Does that mean that the people that catch, catch the. Prabhupada does that mean that the people that catch fish have to also become a fish?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You will become fish. That they do not know, how the migration of the..., transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fishes are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working, they do not know. All darkness, mūḍhā na abhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam [Bg. 7.13]. The birds and beasts, they are also catching fish, and they are also catching. Where is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like the birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization. [pause] The smell. What is the smell?
Amogha: If we go up there, I don't think it will be there.
Prabhupāda: Some decomposed things? They are handling. And this is not good for you. [pause] They fish this side?
Amogha: The birds? Seagulls.
Prabhupāda: And he has got the human body. He also... He does not know that he has got other business.
Amogha: In the school, the students say, "Why not eat fish? Jesus was passing out fish in the Bible. And we all catch fish. We like to catch fish." And when we tell them about meat, so they think that we are losing a great pleasure, that we cannot eat meat. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...ask them, that "You will be very merry---that's all right. But do you want to stop these merry affairs all of a sudden?" Ask them. What will they reply?
Amogha: They will say, "No, we don't want to stop."
Prabhupāda: Then, the nature will stop it. What are you going to arrange for that?
Amogha: They say, "We don't know what will happen after, so we'll just enjoy and have fun now, as much as possible."
Prabhupāda: So why have you come to school? Why don't you play all day?
Amogha: Because we need to get a good job so we can get money.
Prabhupāda: Then, they are thinking of future. Why do you say? Now we are thinking of future. That is the ignorance---that they do not know what is future life. They are thinking of the future, that's a fact, but because they are kept in darkness about future life, they are doing all this irresponsible work.
Amogha: But nowadays people usually only go to school because the law requires it. Then at the age of...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Law requires it or not requires it, they are going to school with some future hope. So every sane man should think of future. But because they are kept into darkness, they are all insane. They do not know what is the future of life. That is the defect. Everyone is thinking for future, but he does not know what is future after death. That is their ignorance. And Bhagavad-gītā begins that as the child has future, the boy has future, the young man has future, similarly the old man has also future. So that they do not know. That is their ignorance.
Amogha: A lot of them will accept, "Yes, there is future after death," but...
Prabhupāda: That he does not know, what is that future.
Amogha: "Oh, yeah, we haven't discovered that right yet."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not yet.
Paramahaṁsa: Many of them say we cannot prove there is any life after death.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is proof. Just like the boy is there and the father is there. The boy is going to be father. This is future. Both of them are there. The boy is also going to be the father, and the father is going to be the grandfather. Where there is no future? The rascals, they do not know, say that; but there is future. How can you stop? The boy is going to be father, the father is going to be grandfather. This is future.
Amogha: But then he dies, and they cannot see any future after that.
Prabhupāda: Your seeing has no power. This is no argument, "I cannot see." I cannot see the other side. That does not mean there is nothing. This is all rascaldom. He has become authority = "I want to see." What you can see? Now this is Indian Ocean. The other side there is India, and other islands, but you cannot see it. Does it mean there is nothing? So these are foolish questions. Because they are rascals they put such questions and nonsense. That is the proof that they are rascals. They are simply taking authority his little vision. That's all. What is your vision? Why don't you see what is the other side? But does it mean there is nothing because you cannot see? When one says, "I cannot see," that means he is a rascal number one. He's believing so much upon his seeing. He does not know that he is a most insignificant person, so there is no value of his seeing. That he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal. Is it not? He's believing his eyes so greatly that "I cannot see." And what is the value of your seeing? What you can see?
Amogha: But there are so many people who come to us and say, "Well, we can see." But we don't believe they can see.
Prabhupāda: What they can see? They can see?
Amogha: We don't think anyone can see.
Prabhupāda: No. Nobody can see. Therefore Vedas say your seeing should be through the book of knowledge. That is seeing. Not with your these rascal eyes. What is the value of these rascal eyes? We know that there is, through books, through geography, we know that the other side is India. But not by seeing with these eyes, by touching it or by smelling it. The senses are useless. But these rascals, they depend on the senses---sense perception. Therefore they are rascal. Imperfect sense perception they believe too much. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know the value of senses. Mūḍhā. Paśyati jñāna-cakṣuṣā. That is seeing, jñāna cakṣuṣa, by the eyes of knowledge, not by these imperfect senses. Paśyati jñāna cakṣuṣa. [pause] Everyone is anxious for the future. Why do they keep bank balance? Thinking of future. Why they make insurance? Why they make hospital insurance? Everyone is thinking of future. But because he is rascal, he is thinking simply for this span of life. Tathā dehāntara prāptir [Bg. 2.13], again you have to accept another body, that they do not know. So rascal. Simply calculating this...
Paramahaṁsa: So we accept that, but in the next life we have a new future. This life we have this future, and in the next life we have...
Prabhupāda: New future... Suppose you become one..., what is called? Crab? And enter into this. Will that be a very good future? You have seen so many, what is called, the crab?
Paramahaṁsa: Crab, yes.
Prabhupāda: [makes noise] They know everything---how to defend, how to eat, how to... Do you like that life?
Paramahaṁsa: Well I don't like it now, but if I was a crab I might like it.
Prabhupāda: Become a crab. That's all right. This is their solace. This is ignorance. You don't like it, but "When I become crab, I'll like it." That is māyā's covering. Otherwise he cannot live. If the crab thinks that "I was king in my past life. Now I have become a crab," it would be horrible for him. Therefore he forgets. That is a concession of māyā. Forget whatever you had. Just like here they try to forget by drinking, intoxication. That kind of forgetfulness is also happiness for the rascals. Nobody wants to be degraded, but if in degradation one forgets his past life, if that kind of happiness is happiness, you can do it. This is for the fools. The dog forgets that he was a prime minister in his past life, and his statue is now being worshiped in the memorial hall, and he has become a dog. This kind of happiness is happiness, let him take it. Actually it is like that.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, all these things are relative anyway. So whether I am a dog or human being, it doesn't really make much difference, because I'm still existing.
Prabhupāda: Still, you don't want to become a dog when you are a human being.
Paramahaṁsa: But when I'm a dog I wouldn't want to become a human being either.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this means happiness in ignorance. That is ass. He's bearing two tons of load, and if he is thinking, "I am happy," it is nice. Therefore they are called ass---accepting distress as happiness. Therefore they are called ass. That is the difference between ass and human being.
Amogha: I saw some asses in the university yesterday. [laughs] Asses and monkeys. One professor was working so hard he was almost crying, because he had so many exams to mark. Very big burden on his mind.
Paramahaṁsa: Isn't it, then, if one is happy, then that's all that counts? Because happiness is also relative. So if I am a monkey...
Prabhupāda: No. There is absolute happiness. You do not know that. You are meant for that, because you are living being. But on account of your ass quality you do not like to understand. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti.
Amogha: My parents used to tell me that nothing can be absolutely true, because everything is really finer shades of gray.
Prabhupāda: He has no idea what is absolute truth. He is in darkness. He does not know there is absolute world. This is the relative world.
Amogha: They think that people who say there is absolute truth have not observed the other thoughts of other people, so they haven't seen everything.
Prabhupāda: What is that other thought? We know everyone's thought. You know everyone's thought.
Amogha: In the university newspaper I was reading, all their discussion is about things like homosexuality is all right or not all right.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? They discussing?
Amogha: Yes. Big... In the newspaper articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights. And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over the world there are homosexuals. And also they are arguing over Palestine and Israel. And sometimes, recently in Melbourne, there was fighting between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they have in the newspapers.
Paramahaṁsa: Even in Los Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They're called militant homosexuals.
Amogha: Even in one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuals, or not, the students. And they said..., I said, "Of course not. This is only a perversion." And they said, "This is nature's way to stop overpopulation. This is nature's solution to, impact, overpopulation, because there won't be any children." So much foolish.
Prabhupāda: How degraded the human society. And the children, they are discussing.
Amogha: It seems that step by step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting more and more degradation, and making it legal, everything.
Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail.
Jayadharma: There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.
Amogha: They think that "This poor man who was psychologically disturbed has killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated. He has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.
Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most lakṣmī at the same time. So they would collect much lakṣmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. And they'd put them in the libraries, too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't give. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, many, many books.
Prabhupāda: Free? Hmm?
Amogha: Excuse me?
Prabhupāda: Free? Hospital?
Amogha: Yes. First they collected the money elsewhere, then they gave it away, yes, to the hospitals and prisons. One boy, collected in one day---he won the contest---he collected seven hundred and fifty dollars in one day, Australian dollars. That's almost one thousand U.S. dollars. I don't remember how many books---very, very many books he gave away also. Big books, hardbound books---Kṛṣṇa books, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: So you are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa very well. That is very good. These rascals are in ignorance, and you are trying to enlighten them. Very good service. [break] ... Reading book, do somebody come and get questions? They receive regular letters and enquiries?
Amogha: Yes. Here they do. I answer many of the letters when they come. Last week, just before we came over to Perth, one boy wrote a letter, he said, "I cannot come to your temple, but I am a student in Geelong"---that's one city near Melbourne---"and when I come to Melbourne I always get your Back to Godhead magazine." So he said, "How can I become a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?" So I wrote him a letter and I told him about getting more books and chanting. And one man wrote us a letter from New Zealand. And he said, "I have Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam part one, two and three. Can you please tell me how many other parts I can get, because I want to have them all."
Prabhupāda: That is very good.
Amogha: And in the schools they have comparative religion courses, and they usually write us a letter saying, "Can you please tell us, for our comparative religions class, what you believe and what is behind your movement?" and things like this. And if they are close enough we usually go there, but we also write them and send them some literature. Everyone in the classes, I find in the schools, everyone is bored with the ideas they are teaching. Everyone has heard it all, and they are bored. But when we come, they become very interested. Just like one school, we had one hour. We showed the film, then we talked and answered questions for one hour, and then the bell rang. It was time for their next class. So the teacher said, "Students, shall we go to the next class or stay here?" And they said, "Oh, let's stay here. This is much better." [laughing] So they stayed for one more hour. Their teaching is so dry, but we hand out mahā-prasādam, and it is very interesting.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Go on doing that. Pick up the fortunates.
Amogha: Usually in each class there are three or four students who are especially pious, and they come, they stay afterwards and ask many questions. We can also see that they are more affected by the understanding they received.
Prabhupāda: This road is good. There is no traffic.
Paramahaṁsa: All of our temples, they are receiving letters regularly from interested person who...
Prabhupāda: That is very good sign. It is not meant for mass people. Only selected fortunate. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "If I could make one person to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, then my mission will be successful." It is not for mass conversion. Only the fortunate, they can do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by introducing saṅkīrtana, even the mass can take part. That is another facility. When there is saṅkīrtana, everyone joins. And by joining in that way, they will become purified.
Amogha: In Sydney, the city council once tried to stop us, legally, from chanting in the street. First they arrested us two years ago, but then they spent many dollars of tax money to prepare a case for the court, and they didn't even tell us. They had the court session, and the judge ruled that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting in the streets is very... It adds color to the city."
Amogha: The judge said, "This adds color to the city and is not illegal. Why you are saying this is illegal? This is their right. And it makes the city more colorful."
Prabhupāda: Nice judge. God gave him sense.
Amogha: Yes. So actually many people like to see the chanting now. Usually, we go downtown, a big party on Friday and Saturday nights, when they have late-night shopping and movies, and many people clap, and they dance a little bit. Sometimes mocking, but also you can see they're affected. And usually if we stop in front of the cinema and chant there, fifty or more people, they just stop and they stare, and they can't think of anything else. They just watch and watch and watch. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of Kṛṣṇa's name.
Prabhupāda: There is natural tendency to hear. Artificially they stopped. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti. It appeals to the heart immediately. Unless he is too much sinful, it will appeal immediately. [pause]
Amogha: In Sydney there was one teacher in a school, a private school for rich men's sons, very, very wealthy. And he is the head of general studies and the school chaplain. A Christian. So one boy from the school became a devotee, although he still went to the school. And the discussion came up in class about what the Hare Kṛṣṇas believe. So he invited us to come.
Prabhupāda: The clergyman?
Amogha: Yes, chaplain, school chaplain. And he liked it so much. I remember he was taking notes, and he was smiling every time one point came up that he liked. So he asked us to come again the next week, and again, and then the next time we went to six classes in one day. For about two months he asked us again and again, and then to show the film. And he was always taking notes. He would say, "What was that again? 'Part and parcel?' "
Prabhupāda: He is sincere.
Amogha: Yes, he was very sincere. Then one day he came to the temple on Sunday because I invited him. And he wanted to make sure that..., he wanted to find out the difference between us and Christianity. But he was convinced in the end that the main philosophy is the same point, the same purpose.
Amogha: And he ate a big plate of prasādam. He liked it very much. So he was saying that perhaps we can have some regular comparative religion course in the school, and when we show the students, tell them about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a study of our religion, as he calls it, our religion, so they can also come in a bus to the temple.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Amogha: The students will come in a bus and see how we chant and have some prasādam.
Prabhupāda: It is a good reception. So that is still going on?
Amogha: Well, it hasn't started yet. This is the plan. This is the plan. But still sometimes he hesitates, because he has doubts.
Prabhupāda: Superstition. That is superstition.
Amogha: Yes. He gets in bad association, and then he begins to doubt a little bit, I think.
Prabhupāda: You do your duty, that's all. [pause] What is this? Stone or something?
Amogha: Part of the street, I think.
Devotee: No, that's asphalt.
Amogha: This? That is stone. I think it's sandstone from the beach. [pause] Many politicians are afraid that Australia may be attacked by the Communists.
Amogha: The politicians are saying that perhaps the Communists will attack Australia also. Everyone is very much afraid of what can happen in the future, because the United States is becoming weaker.
Prabhupāda: Now they are indulging homosex, how they will become strong? And the minor students, they are discussing, that means they are having homosex. The stamina is being lost. Now what they have created, it will be lost. [pause]
Amogha: They always seem to think that spiritual life is something to think about and something...
Prabhupāda: Not very important. That is the...
Amogha: Yes. They think it's not practical action. They think practical action is politics or some physical thing like the hospital, money.
Prabhupāda: That means they have no idea of the spiritual identity. Their idea is that the matter is important. But they do not know that matter is not important, but the spirit is imp... That is moving the matter. It is very easy to understand. Because the spirit soul is within this body, it is moving. But they cannot understand---dull-headed. What is that force which is moving this body, they do not consider to understand it.
Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When people in the street hear Kṛṣṇa's name, the chanting, or they get some literature, does that mean they will not take birth as an animal?
Prabhupāda: No. They'll get birth in good family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. If they simply appreciate, "It is very nice," then in his next life, human life is guaranteed. In a very nice family. Simply if he appreciates, "Yes, it is very nice"---that's all. Then he'll get another chance.
Amogha: Many people think the pictures are very nice. As soon as they see them...
Prabhupāda: Anything they say nice, that means it is guaranteed, next life. Or even in this life it will definitely help. As soon as he reads some pages, then it is guaranteed. Those who are enquiring, that means they are liking. Their life is guaranteed.
Amogha: One boy..., one man who joined us about Rathayātrā time last year was a solicitor. And he used to buy our books, but he never read them. But he would keep them on his bookshelf. And he used to always think, "Those are such beautiful books." He used to think like that.
Prabhupāda: This is appreciation.
Amogha: But he never got time to read it.
Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. But he keeps that book with appreciation, that makes his life sure, insured. He immediately becomes in touch with God. Who keeps the book with reverence and love, immediately he becomes in touch with God. Because these books are representative of God. [japa]
Amogha: When we go to a school, I first ask, "How many students have seen us chanting in the streets?" Immediately they all raise their hands.
Prabhupāda: It is a very nice service you are doing. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, hari-toṣaṇa. As soon as Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, your preaching is perfect. [end]