Prabhupāda: [indistinct] ...nobody said that this meat-eating is bad; now I am saying. You see? So they do not know that it is bad. So they are not offenders.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now that you are saying, many people are stopping.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody, they act... Just like illicit sex. They did not know that it is sinful. Now they are understanding. There was no good leader. Even the priests. In the Bible it is said, "Thou shall not kill." The priests never said, because they are meat-eaters. They themselves are meat-eaters. How they can say? "It is our tradition to eat meat." But how the common man will be educated? [break] You can give me the general prasāda today. I will taste. [break] When one become rich, he becomes lazy. What is called? "Leads to poverty"? Hmm? Luxury. "Luxury leads to poverty." So at one time one become very rich by hard work, and next generation gets the money for nothing, he spends it on luxury, and the third generation, poor. There are many families, in everywhere. In England, all these English men, in the beginning they worked very hard, expanding their empire and working. Then gradually, when they became Lord family, then luxury. Now they are poverty-stricken.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their country is very poor now.
Prabhupāda: Very poor.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of Europe is poor.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially Holland and England. Holland and England and France, there was competition for colonization. The same colonization is there in America, Canada. The Frenchmen and... What is that?
Brahmānanda: The Dutchmen, they went to New York first. The Dutch, they first went to New York.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dhanañjaya: Peter Stuyvesant.
Gurukṛpa: The Scandinavian countries are not so poor. Denmark, Sweden...
Prabhupāda: They are industrious, and they have got resources.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they have developed more recently, I think. They were not colonizing.
Prabhupāda: No, the colonizing propaganda was amongst these three nation = France, English...
Dhanañjaya: Spanish and Portuguese. Spanish also.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that side, is, means Western side.
Gurukṛpa: Spanish went to South America.
Dhanañjaya: But the British used to say, "The sun never sets in the British empire."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we knew in our childhood.
Jayādvaita: Now there's no empire for the sun to set on.
Prabhupāda: No. Now they have made it Commonwealth, keeping some scent, flavor, of British empire. Commonwealth.
Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda? In those early days of colonization they were trying to sail to India by a quick route to get the spices, and it was the same time that Lord Caitanya's movement began. So is that just a coincidence that they were trying to go to India at the same time?
Prabhupāda: No. What it has got with Caitanya's movement?
Rāmeśvara: I heard... A devotee once told me that they were actually...
Prabhupāda: Oh, again, "heard it from devotee." [laughter] That is very dangerous. What Caitanya's movement has got with politics? Nothing. They drag Caitanya's movement, that. Many rascals do that. It has nothing to do with politics. It is simply spiritual. Rather, even the Muhammadans, they were very much respectful to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They never took it as His, the political movement. Now it has become a fashion to take everything from political point of view. Just like in India, they are suspecting you as CIA. "CIA has come to become Vaiṣṇava." [laughter] [break] That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. If anyone remembers Kṛṣṇa by seeing somebody, that somebody is a Vaiṣṇava. He gives impetus to remember Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is Vaiṣṇava. You stick to your principle, Vaiṣṇava. Then māyā will not touch. [break] Where is Prajāpati? He is not here?
Jayatīrtha: No.
Prabhupāda: He is going to...
Jayatīrtha: He's here, but he hasn't come on the walk. He's here in Vṛndāvana, but he hasn't come on the walk.
Prabhupāda: So, he is going to demonstrate anything? No.
Brahmānanda: Is he going to do any play?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dances?
Jayatīrtha: I'm not sure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your desire for that, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Well I, I told him that "You make some play for showing here in Vṛndāvana."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's all right that the women are dancing?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Śrutakīrti: You said plays. He could do plays.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman, as far as possible, should be no... That's not good.
Devotee (1): He spoke to me about it. He wants to do four performances here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that dancing he wants to do, or plays?
Devotee (1): Dancing.
Prabhupāda: With women?
Devotee (1): I don't know.
Prabhupāda: No.
Devotee (1): He has to do play?
Prabhupāda: So without woman there is no dancing? [laughter]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His whole troupe is women. The New York devotees, the Vaikuṇṭha Players, they have drama group.
Prabhupāda: So drama is good. Woman dancing will not be very much appreciated here. [break] ...scarcity of grains, and government will exact taxes for poor-feeding, and it will be used for their own purpose. These are the Kali symptoms. [break] ...stay in future.
Indian man (1): Are they doubting for themselves or for us?
Prabhupāda: For us.
Indian man (1): They should doubt for themselves.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, now, from logical point of view...
Indian man (1): Our movement, this movement, is Kṛṣṇa's own movement.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that they may not... I mean to say, mundane argument, we are selling these twenty lakhs of worth books monthly, so it is being spread all over the world. And those who are purchasing books, they are intelligent men. Then when they will read, how this movement will stop?
Indian man (1): It will never stop.
Prabhupāda: It will not stop. The books distribution is so important that it will continue to stay.
Satsvarūpa: They doubt that our devotees will stick, many times.
Prabhupāda: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula. Śrīla Prabhupāda? One thing in your lecture, you sometimes say that we spend ten lakhs a month just for maintaining. But I figured out we spend... You can say even fifty lakhs, because ten lakhs is very conservative.
Prabhupāda: No, so far I have heard.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I... From what I have seen, we spend...
Rāmeśvara: Ten lakhs is just three or four temples.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Rāmeśvara: Los Angeles, New York, maybe Toronto, San Francisco, Dallas, that's all. Ten lakhs right there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every month.
Prabhupāda: So what is the actual expenditure?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it must be...
Rāmeśvara: Four times that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least fifty lakhs.
Rāmeśvara: At least fifty lakhs each month.
Prabhupāda: Then how you are getting money? If you are selling only twenty lakhs' worth books, how you are spending forty lakhs?
Rāmeśvara: We are selling more books.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than twenty lakhs.
Prabhupāda: So give me, what is called, consensus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The idea is the Book Fund, if the book is sold, it's sold at a profit. So although you may be getting only twenty or thirty lakhs, much more is being collected. That is the point.
Prabhupāda: So why did you not correct me in the meeting? [laughter]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I didn't... [laughter] Even ten lakhs is a very impressive figure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten lakhs expenditure, but twenty lakhs collection.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now we should say fifty lakhs expenditure and...
Prabhupāda: One crore.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One crore collection. That will be a nice target. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...getting more price for their land on account of the temple.
Indian man (1): Yes, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, they are just started asking double.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But who is going to purchase it?
Indian man (1): Ah, we are not.
Prabhupāda: The purchaser is ourself only.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that land... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...not very nice last time. But this time also I am not eating, but I am working nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not eating?
Prabhupāda: No. This is improvement---no eating, but working nicely.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like the six Gosvāmīs.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be great fortune.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: You will save your expenditure, and you will get your work.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the devotees of Lord Caitanya, they liked to see Him take prasādam. We don't... We're not that interested to save. [break]
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. "First of all, you become perfect." If you are a devil, you cannot do it. The devil and divine. Divine means spiritually advanced, and devil means materially advanced. And because we are manufacturing divine, the devils are afraid of it. The devils do not like this movement. [someone drives by:] Jaya. So just see, automatically they are offering respect. That means we are infecting them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was noticing that yesterday on the parade. Everyone was offering respects.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Vṛndāvana after all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that is a benefit spiritually...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: offer you respects.
Bhagavān: In Bombay, even those poor fisherwomen...
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are offering respects. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have to create divine, because the world is full of devils.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have to be divine ourselves.
Prabhupāda: Unless you become divine, how you can convert others to divine? If you are devil, you will convert others to become devil, that's all. [break] ...most beautiful. [break]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Presided over by Aryamā, the planet of trees.
Prabhupāda: Planet... Not planet. Amongst the trees. So who will prepare nice foodstuff for the governor?
Indian man (1): Yes, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, very nice prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Who is preparing?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've given the list to the chief cook.
Indian man (1): My wife is there, and then Pālikā, Devaśakti, your sister. Everybody is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it very nicely. Now it will be examined who can cook very nice. If they say, "Oh, it is very nice," then good certificate.
Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, everybody is praising prasādam.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Everybody praising. Now the governor should praise. Then it will be praising. We can praise ourself, mutual praising society. You are very good, and you say I am very good, that's all. "Mr. Such-and-such is very good," and another man says, "Mr. Such-and-such very good." That is mutual praising society. Others must praise. Outsider must praise. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...question about the philosophy? It's about the expansions. We've been reading the Caitanya-caritāmṛta about Nityānanda Rāma, about the expansions of Lord Nityānanda, Saṅkarṣaṇa. And we were having a little difficulty trying to understand exactly the order in which He expands Himself. We understand that Kṛṣṇa expands as Balarāma. And then...
Prabhupāda: Then again Balarāma expands as Saṅkarṣaṇa. And Saṅkarṣaṇa expands. In this way, expansion goes on. Where is the difficulty?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mention two Saṅkarṣaṇas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hundred thousand Saṅkarṣaṇa. Do you mean to say that this universal management is so easy thing?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: You cannot manage a small temple. [laughter] And Kṛṣṇa has to manage such a vast universal affairs. So this requires brain and expansion. You, when you are enquired, asked, "Why it is not done?" "I told him. I told him." He says, "I told him." Kṛṣṇa does not say. He expands immediately and does the work.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm, does it Himself.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that "I told him, and he did not do. I am free. That's all." [laughs] Expansion of order, and nobody is doing---not like that. One has to see whether it is done. That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that I have told the another man and sleep myself. And Kṛṣṇa does everything in such a way that is perfect. Pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. Nobody can find out any defect. That is Kṛṣṇa, all-perfect. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: the Vaikuṇṭhas, surrounding Nārāyaṇa is Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So five are present. Pañca-tattva.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you say that Kṛṣṇa is pūrṇam, the complete whole. So in the material world, if something is very great, even though we may not like it, like people may not like the United States, but still, they have to admit that it is a very great country in comparison to theirs. So in the material world, things which are great, at least we have to admit that to some extent they are great. But Kṛṣṇa is everything. So how is it that people are saying that He's so tiny that He may even be an ordinary man? How can they be so illusioned to think like that? Kṛṣṇa is everything. How can they ignore Him?
Prabhupāda: Illusioned because you do not know what Kṛṣṇa says. That is your fault. Kṛṣṇa says, "You do this," but you do not do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ [Bg. 9.34]. Who is doing that? Just take a census, who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hardly you will find one in million. So who is carrying out the order of Kṛṣṇa? Nobody is doing.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You are. But Śrīla Prabhupāda, how is it that Kṛṣṇa is everything, completely...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...and still, people completely can ignore Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is... Because Kṛṣṇa is everything, his independence is also Kṛṣṇa. The man's independence is also Kṛṣṇa. So he is misusing his independence. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He is using his independence not to do this. Therefore he is suffering. [greeting someone:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...says, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15] = "From Me there is remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness." So why Kṛṣṇa is interested to induce one to forget? Why?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they want to.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That independence. So he wants to forget. Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, you do it at your risk."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And suffer the consequences.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it the spirit soul which is desiring, or is it just karma?
Prabhupāda: The desiring... After desiring, there is karma. First of all willing.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the soul.
Prabhupāda: Thinking, feeling, willing. What you think, you feel, and then you will, and Kṛṣṇa sanctions, that "Do it."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is the thinking material?
Prabhupāda: Material and spiritual also.
Passer-by: Haribol! Hari-hari-bol!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just like this machine can be used for material and spiritual purpose. When it is being used for spiritual, it is spiritual. Otherwise, material.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything is Kṛṣṇa's energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it can be used in either way.
Prabhupāda: Either way, yes.
Devotee (2): So our thinking and our feeling and our willing is the same. It can be either used in...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But some energy of Kṛṣṇa's is not..., cannot be used either way.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Everything can be used. What is the example, it cannot be used?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I was thinking of Kṛṣṇa's internal energy.
Prabhupāda: No, internal energy, when it is perverted, that is material energy, when it is covered. Just like the sun. When it is covered, it is called cloud.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking of just like Kṛṣṇa's pure devotees like Mother Yaśodā. They are always eternally remaining.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. [break] ...strongly warm, then you do not become cool very soon. You must be strongly warm, fire temperature. Then you will act as fire.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the process for heating up the fire?
Prabhupāda: You keep yourself with fire.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. That is you.
Prabhupāda: Don't go outside the fire. Then you keep yourself warm. And temperature increase exactly like fire. That is required. That is the motto of our Back to Godhead: "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." That is the beginning of our movement. Keep Kṛṣṇa always. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Then you remain Kṛṣṇa-ized. And as soon as you give it up, then think of devils. This is going on. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...kīrtana going twenty-four hours a day. In some of our larger temples is it also advisable?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is advisable for everywhere. Batches. What is the difficulty?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the whole atmosphere becomes spiritualized, purified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing = keep always with fire and you remain high temperature. And if you ignite fire and again pour water and again ignite, again pour, then what is the benefit? If you ignite fire, keep it fire; don't pour water. But generally they do that, that "Now I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, I am free from all sinful activities. Now again let me do it, and again I shall chant."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No progress.
Prabhupāda: No progress. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ [Padma Purāṇa, Brahma-khaṇḍa]. This is the greatest offense. [break] [end]