Prabhupāda: Mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatām...
[aside:] Not too near. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, getting life after life and enjoying sense = the same eating, the same sleeping, the same sexual intercourse and same defense, either as dog or as man or as bird or beast. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. These four things are available, either you become a dog or a god. Not God; these demigods. In the material world, everyone is given the facilities for eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Now, if some dangers come, so we may be victim, but a bird immediately goes. He has better defense. Is it not? If some dangers come, immediately... Suppose all of a sudden a motorcar comes and kills us. We cannot do anything. But the bird, small bird, "Hut!" He can do that. Is it not? So his defensive measure is better than us. Similarly, I want to have sex. I have to arrange for that, find out some... But the female bird is always around me, at any time---this sparrow, the pigeon. You have seen it? Immediately ready for sex life. And eating? Oh, there is some fruit. Immediately he can eat. And sleeping? That is also very comfortable.
So these facilities, don't think that it is available on this skyscraper building. They are available for the birds and the beasts. It is not that unless you have got a very nice apartment in the skyscraper building, you cannot have all these facilities of eating, sleeping and sex life. Anywhere. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt [SB 11.9.29]. This is called viṣaya. Viṣaya means the facilities for sense enjoyment. That is called viṣaya. Our process is viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. One has to give up this viṣaya and relish the transcendental bliss. It is a different platform. And these persons, bodily concept of life, their only enjoyment is this viṣaya. So śāstra says that "You are after viṣaya. This is available in any life. Why you are repeating this viṣaya in different forms of life either as bird or beast or tree or human being or cats and dogs?" Punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Again and again, the same thing, in different forms.
So those who are interested with this viṣaya, matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā [SB 7.5.30], they cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious, parataḥ, by instruction of spiritual master or experienced person or by themselves. Themselves, they cannot. Even by instruction by the spiritual master or higher authorities, parataḥ, svataḥ, personally, or by others' instruction, matir na kṛṣṇe, they cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mitho 'bhipadyeta. Mithaḥ, or by conference, consulting, making a meeting, "What is the problem of life?" They cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why? Gṛha-vratānām. So long they have got this determination, "We shall be happy in this material world," they cannot take. Gṛha-vratānām. Gṛha means home, and gṛha means this body also. Those who are trying to be happy within this body, material world, they cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Why they cannot? Adānta-gobhiḥ: their senses are so uncontrolled. Therefore they must undergo the process of punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, again and again, the same viṣaya: eating, sleeping, mating. That's all.
Nitāi: So our business is to convince them that they can't be happy in the material world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That they have got experience. Therefore daily they are forming so many parties, manufacturing so many means and plans and this and that, but they are not happy. But they are so fool, great fool, that in spite of being repeatedly baffled, still, punaḥ punaś carv..., the same thing, under different form. What is the difference between these rascal Communists and capitalists? After all, they are animals. How they can make things better arrangement? That is not possible. The only thing... This man will say, "Exploit others," and other man shall, "Give food to the others." What is there? Give food to the others or exploit---the same animal propensities. Where is the advancement? The capitalists are thinking, "Exploit others." The same thing, like animal. This dog, as soon as he saw the shadow of his own body with the food, he thought that "Let me capture that food." This is exploitation. And another will say, "No, first of all give food." So they are fighting like this. So everyone's aim is that we shall remain within this material world are happy. Therefore gṛha-vratānām.
Satsvarūpa: If we can get enough to eat, and sex, we will be happy.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And then they become impotent and go to the doctor, "Give me sex medicine." You see? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. The same thing. Not at home sex, but "Let us go to the prostitute, go to the naked dance." They have no other ideas. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. These class of men cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all, one must be in knowledge that "I am not anything of this material world. I am spirit soul. My happiness is in the spiritual world." Then he can be.
Haihaya: Some people say that what make us different from the animals is that we can enjoy art and we can enjoy music, and we can enjoy all type of art and...
Prabhupāda: The animals... The snake also can enjoy music. Do you know that? You play very nice music, a snake will be charmed. He will stand. It will not attack you. Similarly the deers... The hunter, they play very nice music, and they assemble here, and they fight and kill them.
Nitāi: The birds are also making their music.
Prabhupāda: No. That is another thing. But these deer and the snakes, many animals, they are very much fond of music. They enjoy.
matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām
mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām
Next question is, "How one can become interested in the spirit soul or Kṛṣṇa consciousness? How?" This is the position. They cannot. So next proposal is, "How they can be?" Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghriṁ spṛśaty anartha..., yad-arthagamam, niṣkiñcanānām, pāda-rajo-'bhiṣekam.
naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghriṁ
spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ
niṣkiñcanānām [na vṛṇīta yāvat]
spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ
niṣkiñcanānām [na vṛṇīta yāvat]
Naiṣāṁ matiḥ. Eṣām, "of these rascals and fools," matiḥ, "consciousness," "cannot be turned," naiṣāṁ urukramāṅghrim, "towards the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Urukrama." Urukrama means "one who acts very wonderful." And His lotus feet. So naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim: "Their attention cannot be converted or turned towards the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, who acts very wonderfully." Anartha apagamaḥ: "And all these misconcepts of life becomes vanquished." How it can be? Now, "So long one does not touch his head to the dust of a devotee of the Lord who is niṣkiñcana, who has nothing to do with this material world, that devotee, who is simply interested in Kṛṣṇa." If one has got the opportunity of touching his head to the lotus feet, to the dust of the lotus feet of such a great devotee, then it is possible. Otherwise, it is not. Niṣkiñcana, mahīyasāṁ pāda-rajo 'bhiṣekam. Mahīyasām, such glorified devotee, the dust of the lotus feet, can help him, that's all. Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghriṁ spṛśaty anartha.
Satsvarūpa: The pure devotee gives the chance to everyone, but only a few approach. So still the question is how can they become interested in the pure devotee?
Prabhupāda: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Kṛṣṇa..., sarva-dharmān parit..., mām ekam. Kṛṣṇa is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The śāstra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Kṛṣṇa," mahīyasām. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. That is the only attachment for this material world, viṣaya. Whole world is fighting for this viṣaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on. Defense. Rascal does not understand that "In spite of all these things, I will have to change the body, and the same thing will be available again, in a different way." This intoxication, cigarettes... The ant, the small ant, they are very fond of intoxication. You know that? As soon as there is information, "On the top of the skyscraper building there is a grain of sugar," they will go. [laughing] Because sugar contains intoxication. The wine is made from sugar, molasses. It has got the intoxication. You keep a grain of sugar there, and there will be hundreds and thousands. [laughter] Gold rush. Study. You see what is the difference of this civilization and the ant civilization, dog civilization, cat civilization. No difference. It is in the simply formation only.
Dhanañjaya: Yes, I've seen sometimes at the Sunday Feast when we make some sweets, like sweetballs, and there's some left over. They'd find the next day so many drowned ants, because they'd been so mad, they'd jump into it and drown themselves.
Prabhupāda: So śāstra says, labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte [SB 11.9.29] = "My dear human being, please note. You have got this form of life after many, many births, bahu-sambhavānte. You had to undergo the aquatic life, 900,000 species, the birds, trees and plants, two million. How much time it has gone by for this evolution. Now you have come to the human form of life." Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte mānuṣyam: "This is human form of life." Artha-dam: "Now you can achieve success. Although it is temporary, but you can achieve the highest perfection of life. Therefore," tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyu yāvat, "before next death, you be very dexterous to complete the success." And if you think, "Then what about my sense enjoyment?" Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt: "It will be available any life. This life you spend for this purpose. Don't waste simply for viṣaya." Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. This you will get even if you become cat and dog. But in the cat and dogs, I will not get this opportunity, how to get out of this material existence.
Dhanañjaya: Now we should turn around, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. These are the instructions of Prahlāda. These rascals have no education to understand. Therefore we must give this education. We must induce them to read these books in the school, colleges. That is propaganda. Now we have got books. These rascals, they have no books to read about this realization. They have got only Freud's philosophy and this... What is that? And Darwin's theory. All rascaldom, simply rascaldom. Let them read these books. This philosopher, that philosopher, what is that? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. The same philosophy, repeatedly for sense gratification, that's all. That rascal Mahesh Yogi, he also said that "You take this special mantra; your material enjoyment will be easier." The same = the punaḥ punaś carvita. He has no other information. "It will be better." And they accepting = "Oh, my enjoyment will be better? All right, take $35. Give me that mantra." They like it, because they are promising that "You will get this..." Politicians also, they are promising, "You take this ism. Your sense gratification will be easier." The same promise---this ism or that ism; this yogī, that yogī---but nobody knows what is actually happiness. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21].
Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha [SB 7.5.31]. They are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, material body's enjoyment. Durāśayā. It is simply a hope which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Āśayā means hope, and dura means very difficult; it will not be possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And they are being led by such rascal leaders who are promising sense gratification. Because they are blind, another blind man comes and says that "You will be happy in this way. Come on, this way. Your sense gratification will be very much easily satisfied. Come on." "Yes. Very good leader." Adānta-gobhiḥ. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pi. They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature. There is no freedom. Only varieties of sense enjoyment is offered because he want, want, wants. Actually, that is not enjoyment. That is bound up. Nature's... If you enjoy more sex life, nature says, "All right, you become impotent for ten years." And still he wants to enjoy. Little this way, that way---immediately punishment. "Oh, you have eaten more. Three days suffer. No diet, no food. Suffer dysentery." And they are enjoying. What is this enjoyment? As soon as violate a little of the nature's law you are immediately punished. Na te viduḥ. Īśa-tantryāṁ baddhāḥ. Īśa-tantryām, by the laws of nature, they are so much bound up, hands and legs. Still, they are declaring freedom. What is the freedom? Immediately he will be kicked by shoes as soon as he violates a little. Immediately. There is ocean of salt. Now we require salt for making our foodstuff very tasty. But if you take little more salt, you cannot eat. No, you cannot eat. If you think, "Oh, so much salt? Let me put more salt, more salt," it will be useless. You can take only so much quantity. That's all. In this way you are bound up, always. And still, you are declaring freedom. What freedom? What is the meaning of this freedom? But they are fools. They cannot understand.
Haihaya: Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right quantity of salt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is giving you everything in right way so that you can save your time, you do not waste your time, and you can advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. We don't say that you stop eating. You eat. Take little kṛṣṇa-prasādam. We don't say that "Don't sleep." No, you sleep, but must rise early in the morning for maṅgala-ārati. This is our philo... Eating, sleeping and sex. No, we don't say no sex life. Yes, you have sex life. Get your bona fide wife, live peacefully. And defense also we have. We never say that you forego all these things. No, this is not our philosophy. But similarly, as much as you absolutely require, not more than that. The balance time, save for advancement. These people are simply engaged for eating, sleeping, mating. They have no time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This condemned civilization must be stopped. Killing. Killing civilization. The human being got the opportunity of getting out of this punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, repeatedly, and they are not being given the chance. They are being engaged more and more for sense gratification, viṣaya. Killing civilization. Jñāna-tapasā. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. By this process, bahavaḥ, many, by knowledge and tapasya. Pūtāḥ, purified, came back, back to home. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ, bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mām... [Bg. 4.10]. What is that, last word?
Nitāi: Mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah, mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Mad-bhāvam, "My nature." "My nature" means spiritual nature. Kṛṣṇa is spirit. Or the another nature. This is material nature. This is another nature, that is kingdom of God, spiritual nature, Vaikuṇṭha planet. Āgatāḥ: "they came." Every information is there, every opportunity is there. Simply they are not educated. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for educating these rascals. That's all. They are mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ, mad. From the morning, as soon as they rise, "Give me a cup of tea. Immediately I have to go to there and there and there." What you will do, sir? "Yes, I will die. I will die in a motor accident. They are waiting for me." All right, go. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. All kinds of forbidden works they are doing. What? What is the purpose? Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaye. Purpose is only sense gratification. The rascal does not know that "I am doing all these sinful activities for sense gratification, and I will have to accept a very low-grade body." That he does not know. He has already got one low-grade body. He is suffering only. And he will still get another low-grade body, more suffering. That he does not know. But still, he will do everything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti na sādhu manye: "Oh, it is not good." Na sādhu manye yata ātmano' yam: "This kind of activities will cover your soul by body." "Well, this body is temporary. Don't bother." Then another body, rascal. This body is temporary, but you get another body, most abominable. Why you are doing like this? Asann api. Although this body is temporary, but why don't you understand that it is kleśada: it is always subjected to miserable condition of material life. Kleśada. This is kleśada, another body you get, kleśada. Any body you get, kleśada. Why do you get this? Stop these activities. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
That they do not know. Da means "that gives." Any type of material body you accept will be kleśada. They have constructed this building. If for few hours there is severe cold, so many people will die, even in this comfortable building. Is it not? So kleśada is there; either you remain in this way or that way, that sufferings will be there. And to take this comfort of this high building, how much kleśada, how much miserable condition one has to pass. "Sir, I am not doing; the workers are doing." But you have to collect the money to pay them. How much miserable it is to acquire this money to pay another kleśada, laborer. So simply they are captivated by money. Otherwise it is kleśada. Sometimes they fall down and die while constructing. Is it not? Now I have heard that in New York there are many buildings and there is no tenant. Kleśada. The proprietor of the house, he is also suffering = "I have spent so much money. No tenant." In London I have seen there is, for the last six or seven years, very big building. It is vacant.
Dhanañjaya: Tottenham Court Road. Yes, that big one. Centre Point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [laughing] His kleśada is if he keeps tenant, that is more miserable than without keeping tenant. Is it not? Yes. Therefore he keeps without. Because so much taxes will have to be paid that it will be more miserable than keeping tenants. So he is avoiding that. So while constructing, it was troublesome; now, keeping this, it is also troublesome. To find out pleasure they have manufactured so many things. But still, they cannot enjoy it. For few minutes they can enjoy; again, "It is nonsense. Let us go away." [break]
Satsvarūpa: ...is that I can actually become a bird or a dog because...
Prabhupāda: What are these... Wherefrom these dogs and birds are coming? Let them answer. Wherefrom they are coming?
Nitāi: Well, they would say from other birds and dogs. From other birds and dogs.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes, other bird or these bird, wherefrom they are coming?
Satsvarūpa: But that's not my condition. I am a human being.
Prabhupāda: That you may think, but you do not know the nature's law. You have to accept. Just like this apartment, either you accept or somebody accept. Similarly, these bodies are apartment. You have to accept or your brother has to accept. Somebody must accept. They are also living entities. Wherefrom they are coming? As I am a living entity, they are also living entity. So changing body, I may change to that body, he may change to this body. Where is the unreasonableness? We are all living entities. These are different types of bodies. So we have to accept some body. Similarly, he has to accept some body. So he may accept my body; I may accept his body. This apartment change. I may go to this apartment, he may go to another apartment. But there are so many apartments, gṛha. Therefore it is called gṛhamedhī. If you say, "No, no, I am not going to accept that apartment," "No, no, it is not your judgment." Daiva-netreṇa. "What money you have got, sir, to occupy?" "I have no money." "All right, then go this apartment." You must accept. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. By your work it will be ascertained what kind of apartment you will get. It is not upon your decision.
There are so many, many rascals. They think that after getting human body, he is never degraded. The theosophists think like that. That is very palatable. [laughing] But nature will force him to accept the body of a cat and dog. That is not your decision. Daiva-netreṇa: the superior decision. Just in office, you get promotion or degradation, that is not your decision. That is the decision of the higher directors. You cannot say that "No, no, I am not going to accept this post." No. You have to accept. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. These different types of birth are due to your association with different types of the modes of material nature. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties? One has become crow, one has become sparrow, one has become human being, one has become dog, one has become cat, one has become tree, one has become grass. But nature is so expert that in spite of different varieties of life, the nature assembles them in such a nice way that it looks beautiful. There is grass, there is tree, there is sparrow, there is human being, but arrangement is such nice that everything... [end]