Prabhupāda: ...feverish. But these people, they take bhakti as a means of liberation. That is their mistake.
Dr. Patel: That is their mistake.
Dr. Patel: That is where we were quarreling very often.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have now made a conclusion not to fight.
Dr. Patel: [laughs] Yes.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise he can become a Jamadagna.
Kirtirāja: I know.
Prabhupāda: You know Jamadagna? You know Jamadagna?
Dr. Patel: Jamadagni.
Dr. Patel: Who asked Paraśurāma to fill his bowl up.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say Jamadagna.
Dr. Patel: Jamadagni.
Prabhupāda: Means Jamadagni's son. Paraśurāma.
Dr. Patel: Jamadagni, the Paraśurāma's son. Jamadagna is Paraśurāma, the father.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...being done in America because it is not to be done here. Here religion has become fanaticism and political degradation. It is not possible. Now see in our political paper how they are seriously doing and people taking seriously. Whatever program I give them, they are systematically do it. Here there is no assistance.
[break] ...cry, "Oh, we are in..., put in this condition, put in this..." Complain. But what is the remedy, we do not take. That is India's position. Mr. Kanungo, he's the son of late governor of Gujarat. He came to offer me a land in Bhuvaneśvara. So he said... He's the manager of the coal organization.
Dr. Patel: Coal Corporation of India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's the general manager. He told me that "Workers, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase price." Now, when the..., it was private concern, they were managing. They were working very nicely. Now, since it has become government concern, they are not working.
Dr. Patel: Same thing in...
Dr. Patel: ...in nationalized banks.
Dr. Patel: If you go there, you have... [break]
Prabhupāda: That is government = no responsibility.
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact, goverment should be... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...kriyā hīnā. These governments are not... They are not reformed, and they have taken the post of government. Nobody can do.
Dr. Patel: Nowadays in Gujarat all... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...today the political paper, Harmonist?
Girirāja: I read the... Shall I read it now?
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that others may hear. [break] ...you simply present the card anywhere---you get things. You don't require to pay. Then your bills will be paid by the bank. This is the system.
Dr. Patel: That is right. That is extreme, I mean... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...Bank of American card, in any American, Bank of America, I can get one hundred to five hundred dollars immediately. I have got that card. [break] ...the respectable customers...
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...money, then you can squander it, and that is the idea. And you more spend money, then they manufacture consumer goods. That is the policy.
Dr. Patel: This economy of money is very wrong. Before... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...ṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1] = "Don't use anything more than what is allotted to you." That's all. But they are creating artificial demand, and the demand is being paid for by artificial paper. The government is issuing = "This is five hundred pounds" or "Five hundred rupees," but it is paper only. Actually it is cheating. But we are satisfied. [break] ...said, "In God we trust." That's all. "In God we trust." What is that?
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: They have written, "In God we trust"? Americans are...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am giving you this paper---I am cheating you---therefore I am "In God we trust."
Dr. Patel: Don't trust in me. [break]
Prabhupāda: And the best in the world. That is a fact.
Dr. Patel: They have given, fathers, by their forefathers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...street you'll find, both ways, hoarding = generally cigarette, wine and...?
Dr. Patel: And the nightclubs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Naked woman, that's all. Both sides it is there. They advertise. Here... Yes. In America, anywhere you deposit forty dollars. Next day you get everything. [break] ...they say, "This year it is now reduced." Mean "Criminality, let go on, but from the last year, this year it is now reduced." That's all. [break] "...are drinking. Therefore you cannot call me drunkard." This is the logic.
Devotee: Expert cheaters. [break]
Prabhupāda: These rogues and thieves will increase. That is the law of nature.
Dr. Patel: Same thing used to happen in India when the king was being...
Prabhupāda: Men... [breaks] They have a fire[?]. [break] ...two guns. [break] ...police, they simply only note down, that's all.
Dr. Patel: In America also, like here?
Prabhupāda: That's all. My things were stolen from my apartment in the beginning, so I went to the police. They simply noted down, that's all. [break] ...you can narrate the incidents when the Negro at San Francisco...
Līlāvatī: Yes, we were... [break]
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣatriya, this is all finished. Now only śūdras and little vaiśyas there are.
Dr. Patel: No, here, here you have got also brāhmaṇas.
Dr. Patel: But they don't follow them. Nobody follows them.
Dr. Patel: Monied people.
Dr. Patel: Mr. Ford is going to be the president now. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...of safety and security. During Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's reign there was no unnecessary disease and anxiety also. That is mentioned. You have read?
Dr. Patel: That's right. And only government... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...some hundred years ago. When I went to Kashmir, so they said that "Here the law was if a thief was caught and proved he has stolen, his hands would be cut off."
Dr. Patel: That is the law presently in Arabia.
Indian man: Nepal too. Nepal too.
Dr. Patel: Nepal... [Hindi] If a man kills a cow, he is...
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. [break] So at the present moment Indians means non-Muhammadans. What he is, he does not know---but he is not Muhammadan. That's all. [laughter] Otherwise he has to be..., go to Pakistan. Therefore he's non-Muhammadan. That's all. [break] In big, big cities you cannot safely walk at night. Here, India still, we lie down in the open air. That is not possible there.
Dr. Patel: Some lady who had gone to Los Angeles, she had been...
Prabhupāda: In Dallas, Dallas I wanted to lie down in the open air. "No, no, you cannot do this."
Dr. Patel: In that way Europe is better. England is far better. In England anywhere you can sleep.
Prabhupāda: No, no, England... England you cannot lie down on the open. No.
Dr. Patel: No, no, but on the countryside you can pitch a tent...
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. It is very cold.
Dr. Patel: No, no, not in... I mean in summer.
Prabhupāda: Even in summer it is not possible.
Dr. Patel: I have seen people going and touring about... [break]
Girirāja: [reading:] "...cannot safely walk a city street or sleep without fear of burglars, then the government has fallen far short of the actual standard of a legitimate administration." [break]
Prabhupāda: We are criticizing strongly in our paper.
Dr. Patel: I mean, he is right, absolutely correct. If this is the case in America... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...command a position. If you manufacture government like that, it will never be capable.
Girirāja: "But it's said in all authentic, revealed scriptures, wherein it is declared that the purpose of civilized human life is to live together in peace and harmony so that everyone can advance progressively in spiritual life..." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...purpose of life. But they do not know what is the purpose of life. They have taken the idea as cats and dogs, simply sense gratification. Now where..., how there will be good government? [break] ...all leniency to the Muhammadans to get vote. That's a fact.
Dr. Patel: That woman has played the havoc with this. [break]
Prabhupāda: Yes. I mean to say, Mahābhārata, anywhere, or Rāmāyaṇa, you'll never find a woman is elected on the topmost post.
Dr. Patel: And that was widow, with all the...
Prabhupāda: No, woman is never..., was made a king. That was... Now it has become a fashion.
Dr. Patel: And the widow with all her virtues.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...says greatest politician. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. So our present head of the state is both woman and diplomat. That's all. [break]
Girirāja: "...pursuit of human culture are not possible. The government, by being weak and impotent, has thus failed to maintain the standard of civilized culture."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Simply rogues. They want money, that's all. They do not want anything.
Dr. Patel: I think Rāma-rājya was the real democracy.
Prabhupāda: Rāma-rājya was not democracy.
Dr. Patel: No, it was a sort of democracy because it happened that His wife, on seeing ordinary menials...
Prabhupāda: Why king should be under any criticism?
Dr. Patel: That is the responsibility of the king, ruling. [breaks]
Prabhupāda: There is a jalebi seller. He is the medium of bribing police. He has got ten lakhs of rupees, ordinary jalebi seller. [break]
Girirāja: "Yet even in places where the police get good scores for solving crime and apprehending law-breakers, the crime rate remains high." [break]
Prabhupāda: When we were children, there was a respectable gentleman, Mullik's family. He was agent of taking bribe on behalf of... [break] ...Los Angeles. The same thing I am talking.
Dr. Patel: So you will have them, all the photos from here also. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...said, anardhena nyāya-rahitam: "If you have no money, then you'll never get justice." Dalmia, he was imprisoned for two years.
Dr. Patel: He was never in the jail. I know.
Prabhupāda: He was in the Delhi Hospital. [break] Was speaking so loudly real thing. Here you cannot. Immediately you'll be in the black book. [break]
Girirāja: "...must go unpunished. This is itself the business of criminal and lawless men who have no knowledge what it means to protect the citizens under their charge." [break]
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is rogues. So what is the value of that law? The legislative assembly means a set of rogues, and if they legislate something, what is the value of that? [break] Because people are becoming degraded, so they elect such degraded everything. [break]
Dr. Patel: Shameless.
Prabhupāda: The whole nation is asking that "You resign." "No." Such shameless. [break] ...that somebody was in the room, and the outsider says, "Who is in the room?" "No, no, I am not stealing!" [laughter] "No, no, I am not stealing."
Dr. Patel: That means actually he is a thief. That's right.
Girirāja: There's a saying that when you throw a stone in a pack of dogs, the one who is hit will scream. [break]
Prabhupāda: Others also, followers. These ordinary, so-called gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, in the outwardly in religious dress, and inwardly they are committing so many sinful activities, they will become the dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana. So one gosvāmī, he has taken very much objection to this writing, and he is making propaganda against me like anything. There was arrangement of reception. He stopped it. [break] That I have also written, that now, after finishing the sinful reaction, these monkeys and dogs will be liberated. That I have also written. [indistinct] [break]
Dr. Patel: [indistinct] shall say you are raising... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...one has passed stool, and during daytime, due to the sunshine, the upper side is dry. So if somebody says, "This side is better than the other side. The moist side is not so good. The dry side is good." [break] ...gentlemen. Nation, you'll find [indistinct] gentlemen, but they do not know that these things are criminals. They think it is ordinary thing, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication.
Dr. Patel: Natural.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They say it is ordinary necessities. [break] Therefore we call mūḍhās. They do not know what is what.
Dr. Patel: I think Abraham Lincoln was the best of the whole presidents. What is your opinion, Abraham Lincoln?
Girirāja: Well, moist stool or dry...
Prabhupāda: He gave the Negroes freedom, Abraham Lincoln?
Girirāja: Yes, emancipation.
Dr. Patel: The Americans say he acted with Negroes just we have acted with the aboriginals, the Āryans. What have we done with the poor aboriginals of India?
Prabhupāda: We have... [break] "...one sect. Because we are sitting in Haridvar, and people will come here. And A. C. Bhaktivedanta, he is going." So...
Dr. Patel: Bhaktivedanta has formed a canal to take the spiritual India.
Prabhupāda: So they are now envious. [break] Abaddha karuṇā sindhu, kāṭiyā muhān, abaddha karuṇā sindhu, kāṭiyā muhān... That "All men, you take..." "Nityānanda has cut open the stagnant water, and now it is overflooded." Like that. Abaddha karuṇā sindhu... [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said,
pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma
sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
[CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126]
sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
[CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126]
That this is business. Not that pṛthivī loka will come. You have to go and preach.
Indian man (1): That is the purpose and duty of the saints who have already realized...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Another... That is said,
bhārata bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari karo para-upakāra
[Cc. Ādi 9.41]
janma sārthaka kari karo para-upakāra
[Cc. Ādi 9.41]
Yes, that is India's duty.
Indian man (1): Distributing of his own gains, whatever he has... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...nonsense, that sitting at, very comfortably at Haridvara. [break] ...says, everything... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ... Everything has got control of the Supreme. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. How you can say it is material when it is..., it can be used... There is another verse. What is called? Prapañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandha-vastunaḥ. Everything has got relation with the Supreme because it is a production of the supreme energy. So everything is connected. So,
If we do not take everything in that relation, that "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa," and if we simply give it up, "Oh, this is material. This is material..."
Dr. Patel: But one who, those days, vāsudeva idam sarvam... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...has got relation of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore everything should be dovetailed in the service of Kṛṣṇa. And that is real understanding.
[break] ...ānakūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. [break] ...place, you'll find simply drunkards lying down on the street. I lived there for some time.
Girirāja: "Nowhere in the Newsweek article is the quackery of these signs..."
Prabhupāda: But they were very much respectful to me. On my door they are lying down and passing urine. As soon as I will come, "Come on. Come on. Come on, sir. Come on," respectful. They were very respectful. Hmm. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...grudge because I am presenting Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of God. That is their grudge. That is the grudge of the all impersonalists.
Girirāja: "This allegation, however, betrays such a profound lack of knowledge that the so-called svāmī sounds more like one who is learned at Hinduism at New York University than an authentic scholar of the Vedas." [break] "Supreme Brahman, the ultimate..." [break] [end]