Prabhupāda: [indistinct] ...but in different ways. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha... Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. So proportionately they realize the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, in a different way. But He advises that "Why don't you take the direct way?" Therefore He says at the last chapter, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66] = "Directly become Kṛṣṇa conscious."
Dr. Ghosh: That doesn't need any pūjā, then. Just take His śaraṇa and everything will be okay?
Prabhupāda: No. That śaraṇa means... That includes.That is bhakti.
Dr. Ghosh: Even a tulasī dala and a little water is not necessary?
Prabhupāda: No, necessary, necessary, necessary, because mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is the path of bhakti. It is also confirmed, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55].
Dr. Ghosh: Bhakti is in the mind, in the heart.
Prabhupāda: No, not in the mind. No, no. Bhakti is in the heart, but there must be... Just like if you have got love for me in the heart, it must be demonstrated. Just like a husband and wife. The wife is says, "Now we are married and I have got love for you. Let me remain here. You go to your home." The bridegroom comes, "Now we are married and I love you, you love me. You go home; I remain here." Is that very good proposal?
Dr. Ghosh: No, but this...
Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. [laughing] "I have got bhakti, but I don't do anything for You. You go home." So that is not bhakti. Bhakti must be exhibited by activity. That is the definition of bhakti. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. So these are the nine different ways of expressing bhakti. First thing is śravaṇam. Śravaṇam. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ, chanting and hearing. Of whom? Of Viṣṇu. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. Not of any other one. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say that "We can chant anyone's name, either I chant of any demigod's name or any name."
Dr. Ghosh: But does He not say that "Whatever or whoever does it, it comes to Me."
Prabhupāda: That is avidhi-pūrvakam. That is said, avidhi-pūrvakam, "Not in order."
ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
That is not vidhi. Vidhi is here = śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. The first word is Viṣṇu, of Viṣṇu, not of any other. So these are the demonstration of bhakti. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ [SB 7.5.23]. This is arcanā. Just like we perform in the morning, in the evening, at noon, arcā-vigraha. Viṣṇu-arcayam. Viṣṇu. It is not idol worship. Arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ. If one thinks the arcā-mūrti, the worshipable Deity in the temple, as stone or as wood, arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ guruṣu nara-matiḥ... To accept guru, in the paramparā system... All the gurus in the paramparā system---evaṁ paramparā prāptam [Bg. 4.2]---nara-matiḥ, considering as ordinary human being... In this way there is a list. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. A Vaiṣṇava, a devotee = "He is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava," "He is American Vaiṣṇava," "He is śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. When one is Vaiṣṇava, there should be no distinction by the caste. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. In this way there is a list that should be avoided.
So these things required. If actually... The same thing, that if a girl is married to the husband, she must be always engaged in the service of the husband. That will be appreciated. If she says, "Sir, now we are married. You go home and I remain at home," there will be no prayojana-siddhi. The real purpose of marriage is to get children. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. So if the husband and wife simply love within the mind and there is no action, there is no prayojana-siddhi. We should be practical, not simply theoretical. So love between two persons, there must be exchange of loving feelings. These are the exchange of loving feelings. Unless the exchange loving feelings are there, that is not love. That is theoretical. That is not practical.
It is... I have explained in the beginning of Kṛṣṇa book that love is practical exhibition. It is not theoretical. We cannot keep love within the heart. If actually it is within the heart, it must be expressed practically, and these are the... If I love you, then as soon as there is some news, "Oh, Dr. Ghosh is coming?" I shall be very much interested to hear about you, when you are coming, how you are coming. That is love. So that is śravaṇaṁ. If one has love for God, he must hear about God. That is purpose, śravaṇaṁ. And if he has heard about God, then he must chant also. He should, I mean to say, preach to others, "Oh, God is like this, God is like that. God is so beautiful. He does like this, He does like that." That is kīrtana. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ. Smaraṇam. Smaraṇam means always remembering. Without śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ... Just like this chanting. When I say Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately I remember Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Kṛṣṇa's..., everything of Kṛṣṇa, automatically, His quality, His beauty. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ padā-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. To be engaged in the service of the lotus feet as Lakṣmīji is being engaged in the service of the Lord, anantam...
Dr. Ghosh: Why do we prefer pāda and not the head or the hands? What is the rationale?
Prabhupāda: That is impudency. That is impudency. The worship of the Deity should begin from the leg, from the feet. That is respect. Just like my disciples offer respect and touches my feet, not my head. That is impudency. You cannot touch head. Head is touched when I give him, "All right, be blessed." I shall touch his head, and he shall touch my feet. This is the process. You cannot touch the superior head. That is impudency. You cannot jump over like that.
Dr. Ghosh: It's a part of the body. It is only a part of the body...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that is the system. That is the system. You should begin. That... That is described in the Bhāgavatam. The First and Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam are the two legs of Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. These professional reciters, they read Bhāgavata, they jump over immediately to the face. The Tenth Canto is described as the face of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot go immediately to the face. You must begin from the feet---First Canto, Second Canto. Therefore there are nine cantos, and then Tenth Canto. And the Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance, that is the smiling of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot ask the superior to take the facility of his smiling. Smiling will be when he is pleased.
The difficulty is that the Māyāvādī philosophy, they do not accept the form of the Lord, and they do not know how to behave with the form. Of course, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's face and Kṛṣṇa's feet. There is no difference. But still, the system must be followed. Pāda-sevanam. It is very important verse. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. When one has heard, when one has properly chanted, he has little experience of the transcendental form of the Lord, then his service beginning. Just like I engage one servant. So gradually he is given, he is given service = "First of all this, first of all that, then..." Again and again, again, again. The same example can be given, that the husband and wife. Formerly, when I was married, my wife was eleven years old. So [laughing] an eleven-years-old girl, and I was at the same time twenty-one, twenty-two. One day I captured her hand. She began to cry. [laughs] A little girl, you see? So gradually, gradually. I know... When my brother-in-law, sister's husband, used to come... In the beginning, the girls were very... My sisters were same age. So they would meet the husband, offering a little pān or little sandeśa [indistinct].
[break] ...after this. Then niṣṭhā. Then he has got a firm conviction that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and my duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is called niṣṭhā. Then ruci. Then he increases taste. He cannot go out. He cannot go out of this jurisdiction. Just like these boys, they have come from Europe, America. They are attached. Otherwise I am not giving them bribe. I have no money. Why they are attached to serve me any way? If I say that "You die," he will die. Why this attachment? This is development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ruci, aśakti, tato bhāva. Then bhāva. Bhāva means Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully developed. Then love. Then love. Love is actually exhibited. Then "Let me serve Kṛṣṇa in this way, in that way, that way, that way." You see? Fully engaged. This is the process. You cannot say that "Let my love be stagnant in my heart. There is no exhibition." No. There must be exhibition. That is the symptom of love.
Otherwise, why Rūpa Gosvāmī resigned from his ministership? He was a devotee from the very beginning. He is nitya-siddha, eternal devotee. But he gave up everything. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍali-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat [Śrī Sad-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka]. Rūpa Gosvāmī... About Rūpa Gosvāmī and all the Gosvāmīs, this is described that tyaktvā tūrṇam aśesa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ. They were ministers. Their associates were big, big personalities, maṇḍala-pati, big, big leaders. Maṇḍala-pati means big, big leaders. Just like in Indian villages, still there is one man, chief man, he is called maṇḍala. Or there are many maṇḍalas, and there is one head, maṇḍala-pati. So tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ. He was meeting with big, big zamindars, big, big leaders, big, big... Because he was minister. So he gave up all this association. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala. Not one, two, but many he gave up = "What is the value of this association? What is the value? They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious." So gave up. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat. "What is the value of these things?" Tuccha-vat. Bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Just to show favor to the mass of people he became a mendicant. Dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā. Just like Gandhi also did that. Although he was the greatest leader, he was living like a mendicant, one loincloth, that's all. Maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau [Śrī Sad-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka]. Then how he managed? Just like we have seen practically in the life of C. R. Das. He was living very luxuriously. You know, C. R. Das.
Dr. Ghosh: I know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And he was earning fifty thousand rupees at that time, fifty years ago. What is the value, just see. He was earning and spending like anything, lavishly, and he was so bad associated that wine and woman was his paraphernalia. That's all. As soon as there will be case engaged, the first order is that "You have to supply so many cases of wine and so many batches of prostitute." That was C. R. Das's condition, first condition. In the Mapusil court when he would be invited to plead, the first condition is this. Then his fees. So in this way he was living. But he gave up. On Congress Movement he gave up everything practiced, but he died within one year. Because he was living so luxuriously, all of a sudden he became a renouncer, he could not tolerate that. He died. Within one year he died. So therefore these ministers, they gave up all this luxurious life, became a mendicant. The question is, how they lived? Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna kan... Then gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtādhi-laharī-kallola-magnau sadā: they were fully absorbed in the thought of how Kṛṣṇa, and His pastimes with His gopīs. He was always absorbed. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. This is exhibition. When one becomes ecstatic, "Oh, now I have to do something for Kṛṣṇa," then he renounces everything. Only Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the test. That is the test.
What is the use of spiritual advancement? Spiritual advancement means these material things given up. That is spiritual advancement. That is... The example is given, bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavoḥ viraktir anyatra syāt. As soon as one develops real bhakti, he will be averse to all these material things. That is the first sign. "No more these things." Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. Just like if you are hungry and if you are given some food, if you are satisfied, then the same food will be denied by you = "No, no, no. I don't want any more." Full satisfaction. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. When he fully became perfect and Nārāyaṇa was present before him, He asked him, "What benediction you want? You take." He said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "Simply by seeing You, by Your presence, I am fully satisfied. No more benediction. I don't want anything." This is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. [break] ...ca lābha-santuṣṭau. No more demand. "Whatever by Kṛṣṇa's grace comes, that's all right. And not comes, it doesn't matter." The other śloka also, nirāśī, that is bhakti. Otherwise, how one can be satisfied in any condition of life unless there is bhakti? That is the test. The test is that he has got something. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ [Bg. 6.22]. If he actually achieves Kṛṣṇa, then he does not think that anything better than this.
That I see amongst these Europeans and American boys and girls. They have seen it, that "It is better than our so-called material life." Therefore they have been able to give up. Just like this boy Girirāja, he is very rich man's son. His father gave him a special car. His father is a big lawyer in Chicago. So he gave up everything. Now he is begging daily, although he is earning at least fifty thousand rupees per month. But he has no... He is just like beggar. He doesn't care for his father. There are many like this. Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. These are the test. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] [break] ...devotee. Then all the good qualities will be manifested in his person. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. And if one is not a perfect devotee of Kṛṣṇa, of Hari, then he cannot possess any mahad-guṇa. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Why? Mano-rathena: "He is simply hovering in the mental plane." He is not fixed up. Therefore asato dhavato bahiḥ. Then he will have to do something which is asat. Asato maṁ sad gama. That is the Vedic... "Don't remain in the asat; just make progress to the sat." That is wanted. That cannot be done unless one is fully situated in unalloyed devotional service of the Lord. That is not possible. One must go to the asat, because he is hovering on the mental plane. Mental plane is not secure. Anyone who is in mental plane, he may fall down at any moment.
So we have to transcend the mental plane, intellectual plane. Jñana-karmady-anavṛtam.
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā
This is bhakti: simply to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, fully engaged. Ānukūlyena, favorable, as Kṛṣṇa wanted Arjuna, "You fight!" So he did not like to fight. He was nonviolent, so-called. But Kṛṣṇa wants. Kṛṣṇa wants, ānukūlyena. Kṛṣṇa must be satisfied. It doesn't matter whether I am satisfied or not. But here things are going that "Kṛṣṇa, we don't care. If Your instruction does not appeal to me, to my sense satisfaction, I don't like it." This is going on. Nobody likes to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. Nobody is prepared to that. "If Kṛṣṇa satisfies my whims, then I accept Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. That is not bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply you have to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa. That is called bhakti. [break] ...in devotional service. Without devotional service, all activities, they are false, simply just like jumping like the monkey. What is the value? The monkey is always busy, but his busy-ness has no value. His busy-ness has no value. Therefore as soon as one monkey..., "Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out!" But he is always busy.
So to become busy like a monkey has no value. To busy..., to become busy as a devotee, that has value. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Māyāvādī philosophy is that "This business is useless, so stop it altogether." No. That is negation. If you stop... Just like a child, if you stop playing mischief, always doing, then he will be mad, psychologically. You must give him some engagement, better engagement, so that he will not commit any more mischief. So bhakti is a service, activity. If he is not engaged in activity, then he will become again a rascal. Because we are living entities. We are not dead stone. That is bhakti. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Engage..., hṛṣīka means the senses. The senses must be engaged. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ. Now the senses engaged for my sense gratification. So it should be purified, no more sense gratification. But the senses must have engagement. And how? That is in the service of the Lord. That is real activity. So bhakti is not that it is simply negation. There must be positive action. That is bhakti. [break]
Dr. Ghosh: ...exist?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Certainly.
Dr. Ghosh: Have you seen?
Prabhupāda: And you have not seen so many things. Does it mean that does not exist? You are researching. You have not seen. As a scientist...
Dr. Ghosh: I have heard lots of ghost stories, but...
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not stories. We are hearing from Bhāgavata. It is authority. We are not hearing the stories of a third-class man. We are hearing from Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva...
Dr. Ghosh: But you see, up till now, in my long life of eighty years...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that.
Dr. Ghosh: I don't say that.
Prabhupāda: So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyāsadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyāsa, full of all knowledge, and Bhāgavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity in subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body = mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. [break] Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedānta-sūtra, śāstra cakṣuṣā.
Dr. Ghosh: But it should be proved.
Prabhupāda: It is true because it is spoken by Vyāsadeva. How you say it is false? You cannot say that. That is blasphemy.
Dr. Ghosh: In olden days there used to be the ghosts and all these things, but now that is gradually...
Prabhupāda: But gradually... That does not mean you have improved very much. Because you do not believe in the ghost...
Dr. Ghosh: Our mental condition has improved.
Prabhupāda: No, that does not mean... There are ghosts. Ghost means subtle life. It is not gross. So people know and has got some idea of the ghost, but they have no descriptive idea. Here is the descriptive idea. That is śāstra. Just like less than the śūdras, it is called pañcamas. How many pañcamas are there, that is described in the Bhāgavata = kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanaḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. That is śāstra. Gives full explanation, full knowledge. Śāstra cakṣuṣā. We have to accept through the śāstra. Not that "Because I have not seen, therefore it is false." No. Vyāsadeva has no business to tell you something false. Otherwise he would not have been accepted as the supreme guru by all the sampradāyas. You cannot defy Vyāsadeva. He is saying, you have to accept. "I have seen. I have no experience," that doesn't matter. So many things you do not know. Just like a child has no experience what is the other side of the sea. Does it mean that there is nothing? A child may say like that, but a person who has visited the Arabian countries and others, "Oh, no, no, no. There are so many things." So experience should be taken from a person who has got real experience. Not that "Because I cannot see, it is void." That is not experience.
Girirāja: Do "ghosts" refer to categories of ghosts or particular famous? These names...
Prabhupāda: Yes, categories. Yes. There are so many. Just like human beings. Human beings. There are Americans, Indians and Africans and so many, so... One knows that human being, and one knows in descriptive way. So whose knowledge is perfect?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is descriptive.
Girirāja: [reading] "And similar other evil spirits will cause persons to forget..."
Prabhupāda: Evil spirit everyone believes, every country. In London there are so many ghosts. When I was in John Lennon's house, so they complained, "In this one house, every night a ghost comes." You see? So I advised them, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It will go away." Then it actually so happened.
Yaśomatīnandana: In many of our temple buildings also there were some ghosts.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have got experience. In our Calcutta house, there was ghost. In Lucknow when I started that laboratory in Mr. Bhattacarya's house in Vatnagara[?], there was a ghost. I have practical experience. My servant...
Dr. Ghosh: I have heard a few cases. You see. I was reported that they see in that house there was ghost, and he used to put clothes to fire, you know, and they have to run for water to extinguish it. Then I went and examined. He was a friend of mine. Then I ultimately detected that his own wife got hysterical and used to do all those things.
Prabhupāda: No, that is also possible. But...
Dr. Ghosh: You see? So I discovered that there is no ghost, and I explained to them...
Prabhupāda: No, that is also possible. Sometimes we are misled. But ghosts, in every country, there are so many books, and especially it is mentioned in the Vedic literature also. Bhūta-preta-yoni. Bhūta-preta-yoni. That is described. Out of many forms of life, these bhūta-preta-yonis is also. Nana-yoni. Nana-yoni. There are different sources of birth. So bhūta-preta-yoni is also mentioned there, species of life. [break] Bhūta-preta is mentioned.
Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa says, bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā [Bg. 9.25]. [break]
Girirāja: "...for other evil spirits who cause persons to forget their own existence and give trouble to the life air and the senses. Sometimes they appear in dreams and cause much perturbation. Sometimes they appear as old women and suck the blood of small children. But all such ghosts and evil spirits cannot remain where there is chanting of the holy name of God."
Prabhupāda: That's it. [break] ...Viṣṇu. That is the injunction. Of Viṣṇu. In the Pañjikā, you will find in the Bengali Pañjikā, when there is some auspicious sign, they have recommended, "Chant the name of Viṣṇu." Have you seen in the Pañjikā? Yes. [break]
Girirāja: "...and persons who are still following the Vedic ways, especially householders, keep at least one dozen cows and worship the Deity of Lord Viṣṇu..." [break]
Prabhupāda: In Indian villages---I have seen in Bengal---they keep cows, and they have got Viṣṇu śilā, especially in the house of a brāhmaṇa, all high-caste men. Yes. [break] Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was a demon, but he was never afraid of Him. He was challenging, "Oh, my father..." He never said "father." He said, asura-varya: "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye asura-varya dehinām. When his father asked him, "My dear Prahlāda..." After all, he was child. "What you have learned best?" So he said, tat sādhu manye asura-varya. He is addressing his father, asura-varya, "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye: "I consider it very nice thing." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām.
Dr. Patel: So you think we are demons also.
Prabhupāda: No. [lots of laughter] Demons would not come daily to see Kṛṣṇa's ārati. That they'll not. That they'll not. No. I say that...
Dr. Patel: Tomorrow we are going to walk all the distance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I say that we devotees, we are not afraid even of demons. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. He asked the son, "What you have learned, the best thing, in school?" He said, "My dear asura-varya," not "father," "My dear best of the demons, I think this is the best thing." "What is that?" "Now, these people," sadā samudvigna-dhiyām, "always anxious, full of anxiety..." Why? Asad-grahāt: "Because they accepted this material world as all in all." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5] = "On account of their accepting this material world as everything, therefore they are full of anxiety. Now, to get out of this anxiety, so, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. Ātma-pātaṁ, suicidal place; gṛha, household life; they should give up." Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. "Then what you will do?" "Oh." Vanaṁ gato: "He should give up and go to the forest." "And then?" Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5] = "And take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. I understand this is the best thing." And his father become more angry = "What this rascal is speaking?" like that. [laughing] [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's all right? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. [break]
Girirāja: "...all the cowherd men who went to Mathurā to pay tax returned home and were struck with wonder at seeing the gigantic dead body of Pūtanā." [break]
Prabhupāda: Here is description of Pūtanā, twelve miles. Big, gigantic body. And nobody has seen such gigantic body. But it is described in the Bhāgavatam. [break] ...Mahārāja was so simple, village man, that he accepted Vasudeva a great mystic. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. A devotee says that "I prefer to become a dog in the house of a devotee."
vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukkura,
bhuliyā janaha mora
bhuliyā janaha mora
He is praying, "My dear Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura, you kindly accept me as your dog. But you accept." You see? "And I shall do this, I shall do this. I shall sit down on your door. I shall not allow any nondevotee to disturb you." [chuckles] He has sung like...
vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukkura,
bhuliyā janaha mora
bhuliyā janaha mora
"And I shall not ask you for any food. Whatever you like, you can give me a little eaten food. I will be satisfied. But keep me as your dog." That is the prayer, that Vaiṣṇava is prepared to become a dog even at the house of a Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He doesn't want anything more. He wants simply to be associated with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is Vaiṣṇava. [break]
Līlāvatī: What is that prayer in Bengali?
Prabhupāda: That is in Bengali. [break] ...tomara kukkura, bhuliya janaha more. [break]
Girirāja: [continuing reading from Kṛṣṇa book] "...all the residents of Vraja cut the gigantic body of Pūtanā into pieces and piled it up with wood for burning." [break]
Prabhupāda: Because she was killed by Kṛṣṇa, the whole body has become sanctified. So when it was..., the body was burned, there was good aroma. [break]
Girirāja: "...aroma was due to her being killed by Kṛṣṇa." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. [break]
Girirāja: "...violent, and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brāhmaṇas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing, and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology---then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ [Skanda Purāṇa]. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Therefore there must be a brahminical class.
Indian man (2): Selfless class.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. [break] ...Kali-yuga's symptoms = dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. [break] ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others, they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. [break] Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is the process. If you don't perform yajña, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food product. And if there is no food product, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy? And that has happened. There is no food. Simply talks---in the assembly, in the conference, in the meeting. But there is no food. Food is selling at four rupees a kilo. Where is yajña? [japa] [break]
Girirāja: "...as the brāhmaṇas chanted..." [break]
Prabhupāda: "...need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of yajña," or "Kick aside all these things. Simply make śūdras." Now, how you will be happy? That is no... [break] ...accept that the modern material science has advanced. But what is the result of advancing? There is no food, there is no cloth, there is no shelter. That's all.
Dr. Ghosh: But they have provided you with motorcars and aeroplanes to go across the sea, reach America, France, within a few hours.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also credit. That is al... Because they have done something...
Dr. Ghosh: Something to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, yes. That is our mercy, that we take advantage of their creation to bless them. We don't require all these things, but we take the advantage = "Because he has done something, let us take it." Just like we are using the microphone. So we don't require any microphone, but because he has created, that is the proper utilization. Not for sense gratification, cinema song. That is not required.
Dr. Ghosh: Cinema can be used for education.
Prabhupāda: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate [Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī]. Therefore we are lessoning people that "Whatever you have done is [indistinct]. Utilize for Kṛṣṇa." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these.
Dr. Ghosh: So for improving our morality.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that "Everything, what you have done, it is all right. Utilize for saṅkīrtana yajña." Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa... Rūpa Gosvāmī has recommended that,
We have no attachment for these things. Just like in America, I ride on Rolls-Royce car. That does not mean because in India there is no Rolls-Royce car, therefore I shall not walk. We are not attached to all these things. But if it is available, we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That's all. [break] ...the best use of a bad bargain. When there is a bad bargain, so intelligent man makes the best use = "All right, how it can be used for the best purpose?" That is wanted. [break] Newspapermen, they call me "jet plane parivrājakācārya." [laughter] [break] But our process is for yajña.
Dr. Ghosh: You spread it like...
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] We also say that "You take advantage of this, and also produce sufficient food grains so that people may not starve." Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Unless there is sufficient grain... People are giving more stress how to produce machine, but they are not giving any stress how to produce foodstuff. So many land are lying vacant. You go in India, so many lands. Not only in India; in other countries also. In England also we have seen. They are not taking care. Because it is very troublesome to put... "Better start a factory and get money easily."
Dr. Ghosh: They are now thinking about it. "Green revolution."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] So much land is lying vacant. They could utilize for food grains. No. They do not do it. [break] ...they have been withdrawn from the villages to work in the city, in the factories, and the lands are lying vacant. [break] Mahimā siddhi, to become heavier. Animā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti siddhi. There are eight kinds of yoga-siddhis. So those who are yoga-siddha... Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. He became so heavy. [chuckles] [break]
[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Jaya.
[break] ...aeroplane, it comes gradually, there is no crashing. But if it drops all of a sudden, then it is crashed. So this Tṛṇāvartāsura could not do that. He felt so heavy, fell down and died.
Girirāja: "He hit the stone ground and his limbs were smashed. His body became visible to all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. When the gopīs..." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the performances of all austerities. One can get the result of all austerities simply by serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead. [break]
Girirāja: " '...made charities and performed many welfare activities for the public, such as growing banyan trees and excavating wells. As a result of these pious activities, we have got back our child.' " [break]
Prabhupāda: ...very nice building. And one day death will come, "Ah, what is this? [laughs] Finish now." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. And as soon as death comes, all this construction becomes, "Ah, finished." You have to begin another chapter, either as human being or as bird or cats and dogs or anything. That is reality. But they do not know this. They are thinking that "This construction work will save me."
ātma-sainyeṣu asatsv api
pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
ātma-sainyeṣu asatsv api
pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ
paśyann api na paśyati
That these children, they are seeing that "This thing will not exist. It has no value." But they are still busy, [laughs] still busy. Similarly, everyone knows that "Whatever we are constructing, it will be finished," but still, they are busy. They are not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Girirāja: " 'Now He has come back to enliven His relatives.' After observing such..."
Prabhupāda: So our policy is that if you want to construct, if you have got the tendency, so you construct for Kṛṣṇa. That will be service. Construct a temple for Kṛṣṇa. So that service will be taken into account. Similarly, when we use this motorcar or aeroplane, so in the same purpose... Now they have done this, let it be engaged in Kṛṣṇa conscious service. So one who has manufactured it, he will be benefited, and others will be benefited.
Girirāja: "After observing such wonderful happenings, Nanda Mahārāja began to think of the words of Vasudeva again and again." [break]
Prabhupāda: He was a great charmer. Yes. Simple. Simple life, village life. They were all... Vasudeva said all these things. Vasudeva is kṣatriya. From the political eyesight, he predicted that "This may happen," but he, as a vaiśya, simple agriculturist, he thought that "Oh, Vasudeva is so..., foreseer." [break]
Girirāja: Simplicity is not considered a bad quality?
Prabhupāda: No, no. For him it is all right. And anyone, sva-dharme... He is a vaiśya, he should believe like that. A politician should act like that, that... para-dharmabhāvaḥ. One should not imitate. Just like a physician is operating. I should not imitate, to take the knife and operate. That is not my business.
Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was once nursing..."
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that Vasudeva was also thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. As a simple agriculturist, he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And Vasudeva also, when he was asking him, "Go and take care of your children there," that was thinking of Kṛṣṇa. If the thinking of Kṛṣṇa is there, then either kṣatriya or vaiśya or brāhmaṇa, it doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same benefit.
ya eṣaṁ puruṣaṁ sākṣād
na bhajanty avajānānti
sthānāṁ bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ
na bhajanty avajānānti
sthānāṁ bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ
Everyone should understand that "Whatever I may be, I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." So if this consciousness is maintained and everyone is engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa by his work and by his occupational duty, then he is perfect.
Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was nursing her child and patting Him with great affection, there streamed a profuse supply of milk from her breast, and when she opened the mouth of the child with her fingers, she suddenly saw the universal manifestation within His mouth." [break]
Prabhupāda: "...Kṛṣṇa here?" And died. He died. "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And died immediately. He said his mother, "Mother, you chant Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," because he has learned this. So after hearing, she inquired, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. So I told him, "You have done the best service to your mother." [end]