Prabhupāda: ...yogic practice. So to save oneself from the influence of material laws. [break]
Girirāja: [reading from Kṛṣṇa book] " '...executed all religious principles. In this way you were able to cleanse your heart and control the influence of material law. In executing your austerity, you used to eat only the leaves of the trees which fell to the ground.' " [break] ...takes birth in other planets are the same Devakī and Vasudeva, His parents?
Girirāja: Then how is it that after they gave birth to Kṛṣṇa this time they went back to Godhead?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is the objection?
Prabhupāda: What is the objection?
Girirāja: Well, according to the usual way of thinking, we think that if somebody is... Well, that doesn't apply in this case. [laughs]
Girirāja: "Having spoken thus in the presence of His..." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the universe, Kṛṣṇa may have another devotee like them. If there is another universe, why not another couple? There is everything another. Because we are limited, we want to make Kṛṣṇa always limited = "How it can be?" We should always remember Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable omnipotency. [break] ...know how many thousands of couple are there because Kṛṣṇa's that birth is going on every moment. Therefore it is called nitya-līlā---in this universe immediately born, that that birth, that pastime is again immediately manifested in another universe. He has grown old two days; so the same form again in another universe. The same example = just like 6:30 a.m on the sun, solar calculation, immediately in another country, 6:30 a.m. Is it not?
Mahāṁsa: Yes. [break]
Girirāja: ...the position of being Kṛṣṇa's parents or hearing Bhagavad-gītā or being a cowherd boyfriend can be filled by different living entities qualified in the different universes.
Satsvarūpa: But that makes them sound like they are posts instead of individuals. I thought you once said that Arjuna, he always stays in the material universes. He's a person, and he always travels with Kṛṣṇa, not that it's a post.
Prabhupāda: Everyone, all the associates of Kṛṣṇa, like Kṛṣṇa. [break]
Girirāja: Right now Kṛṣṇa is in so many different universes.
Girirāja: And He is having the same pastimes.
Girirāja: And in each universe there is an Arjuna.
Girirāja: Everything. So is it the same living soul, Arjuna, in each universe, or a different living being may be taking that position?
Prabhupāda: Take it for granted, different. What is the wrong there? After all, everyone is Kṛṣṇa's expansion. Ānanda cinmāyā-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. We are also expansion. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. But still, we have got individuality. Kṛṣṇa proved it---I explained that---in Vṛndāvana when everything was stolen by Brahmā. Again another batch of cows and calves and cowherds boys. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Immediately. What is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa?
Girirāja: "Being ordered by the Supreme Personality..."
Prabhupāda: Is it clear or not? You wanted to clarify. Is it clear or not?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. You said the answer is that it's different persons, not just one Arjuna, not just one Yaśodā.
Prabhupāda: Just like I have got hundred branches. Each branch I have got a set of my sitting room, and my books and everything. And wherever I go, I see the same place. If it is possible for an ordinary man to have a hundred sets of the same thing, why not for Kṛṣṇa?
Girirāja: So you have... In each branch you have a different cook, different president, different treasurer...
Prabhupāda: But the set is there, what I want. The set is there.
Girirāja: Yes. Now in the case of Jaya and Vijaya, who fell down and took the role of demons, after three births as demons they were supposed to go back to the spiritual world. So after the three births in this universe, were the same pastimes were going on in other universes.?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Whenever Kṛṣṇa desires that He is to fight with somebody, another must prepare himself for fighting, becomes His enemy. Because in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no chance of fighting, therefore He sends His devotees to become His enemy, and there He fights.
Girirāja: So other living entities would play the part of Rāvaṇa in other universes?
Prabhupāda: Why not? Or any other way.
Mahāṁsa: We cannot actually conceive of all these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The conclusion is that Kṛṣṇa, being reservoir of all pleasure, so the pleasure of fighting is there. So He can exhibit anywhere. [break] That is the understanding of Kṛṣṇa. As soon as we limit Kṛṣṇa like one of us, or little bigger than me, then I become Dr. Frog. [dogs barking] [aside:] Don't come near. Why don't you tell them? [japa] [break]
Girirāja: "...Vasudeva attempted to take his son from the delivery room, and exactly at that time, a daughter was born of Nanda and Yaśodā. She was Yogamāyā, the internal potency of the Lord. By the influence of His internal potency, Yogamāyā, all the residents of Kaṁsa's palace, especially the doorkeepers, were overwhelmed with deep sleep, and all the palace doors opened although they were barred and shackled with iron chains. The night was very dark, but as soon as Vasudeva took Kṛṣṇa on his lap and went out, he could see everything just as in the sunlight." [break]
Dr. Patel: [Hindi] ...he worships like anything. Then he... We have an assembly, and they passed by majority vote that I should refrain from coming here. But I somehow or other came.
Prabhupāda: But I saw and offer my obeisances to your motorcar. [laughter] I was thinking that "Dr. Patel's representative, the car, is here."
Dr. Patel: [Hindi] Because we are trained to all the accredited saints of India, to whatever opinion...
Prabhupāda: Our business is to point out who is not a saint.
Dr. Patel: But don't point us out. We want the tree to be a saint. Okay?
Prabhupāda: That is our business. Preacher must be. [Hindi] [break] ...can I speak something? Because their position is to take Ramakrishna as a saintly person. Saintly person there may be. Just like Rāvaṇa, he also underwent severe penances, but just to fulfill his personal desire. Or Rāvaṇa was so devotee of Lord Śiva that he was cutting his head and offering to the deity. Is it? You know, everyone?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why he is called rākṣasa, not a saintly person? What is the reason?
Mahāṁsa: Because he was trying to en...
Prabhupāda: I will talk. Why he is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? And not only that... I do not know whether here. In Delhi have seen Rāma-līlā, the effigy of Rāvaṇa is beaten with shoes sometimes.
Indian man: They do like that.
Prabhupāda: But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Śiva gave him all benedictions = "Whatever you wanted." So why this Rāvaṇa is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brāhmaṇa by birth. He was born of a brāhmaṇa father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as rākṣasa? You answer this point.
Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with others also. So kāma, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also along with... [break]
Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone... That is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be... He may be very, very big or so-called saintly, but according to the description of the śāstras, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we...
Indian man (3): He was devotee of Lord Śiva. Otherwise why Lord Śiva gives him whatever he wants?
Prabhupāda: Lord Śiva is Lord Śiva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Śiva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Śiva, why he is described as rākṣasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Rāvaṇa a rākṣasa, according to the śāstra, another devotee may be angry. So what can I do? It is stated in the śāstra, rākṣasa. Similarly, in the śāstra it is stated that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: "If one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he is duṣkṛtina, the most sinful; mūḍhā, rascal; naradhāma, lowest of the mankind; māyayā apahṛta-jñāna." These things are there. But if we quote the śāstra, that "This man has not surrendered to the Supreme Lord; therefore he is a rascal," then what is wrong with us? It may be very strong word, but it is stated in the śāstra. Just like about Rāvaṇa, it is stated that he is a rākṣasa. So it may be very insulting and strong word, but this is the statement of the śāstra. And if one quotes from the śāstra, what is wrong on his part?
Suppose in the court a big man has done something criminal, and the judgment is that he should be punished. So can you accuse the court, "Oh, such a big man?" Just like... For the time... let us understand. Mahatma Gandhi was put to jail in so many times. So nobody could say, because according to law there was civil disobedience. So if the law puts you in the jail, so can you protest against that? Then you will be also put into jail, contempt of court. Although everyone respects Mahatma Gandhi, but why he was put into jail? According to law. It may be it is man-made law, it is wrong, but the principle is that whatever is judgment of the śāstra, we have to take. It doesn't matter who is that man and how great he is. That is... Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim sa... [Bg. 16.23]. The śāstra is given stress always. So you cannot go beyond the verdict of the śāstra. That is the injunction. [break] ...about Guru Nanak's statement that...
Indian man (4): Rāma gao rāvaṇa gao.
Prabhupāda: You just explain that.
Indian man (4): [Hindi] [break]
Prabhupāda: As soon as he said that, he was killed immediately. That is the atheistic version. "I don't care for God." So as soon as he became atheistic, he was killed, and so long he was chanting, "Rāma will kill me, Rāma will kill me," so he was not killed.
Indian man (4): He was a bhakta at that time, according to the... [break]
Prabhupāda: He was chanting the holy name of Rāma.
Indian man (4): He was chanting Rāma, Rāma, Rāma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani, iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahma ity abhidhīyate [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. So, so long one chants Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, who can kill him? Yes. That is the point. [break] When He constructed bridge on the ocean, the stones were floating. Where is the law of gravitation go on? So He can do that. He withdrew the law of gravitation.
[break] ...position of the demons. Although he is not learned, he giving instruction. [break]
Mahāṁsa: ...who is learned. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...business, that without being learned in the subject matter, he wants to give instruction. [break]
Girirāja: [reading] "Sir, let us now make arrangements to kill all children who were born within the last ten days in towns, countries, villages and pasturing grounds." [break]
Prabhupāda: On this side there is government sign, "No dogs," "No dogs." Dogs are not allowed.
Indian man (4): What is the reason?
Prabhupāda: Dogs are disturbing to the people. They can attack any man. If one takes dog, he must lash it, chain. That is the law there. [break]
Indian man (4): There is no idea also. When master is there, then he can control the dog.
Prabhupāda: Oh, the master is... It may be master of the dog, but he is not master of the world.
Indian man (4): But that is how he did it.
Prabhupāda: That is quite all right. But after all, it is dog. After all, it is dog.
Indian man (4): And the law also is that it should be chained. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...mentioning sometimes dog attacks the master. Not only dog, animals. [break] ...the bitterest enemies of the demons, always. That is the position. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ [Bg. 16.6]. So demigods, they are devotees of Viṣṇu, and they are always enemies unto the demons. [break] ...especially in the heart of the saintly person, to kill the saintly person. So Kṛṣṇa also will be killed. Because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, therefore everyone is Kṛṣṇa. The same conclusion.
Mahāṁsa: That does not show any logic, because He is in everybody's heart, how can everyone be Kṛṣṇa? [break]
Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home.
Mahāṁsa: That is what they are saying. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...if this logic is all right. [break] ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship even..., whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa. [break] Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. So saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civilization = saṁskāra before the birth, then immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nāma-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇa. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ [Skanda Purāṇa] = "Everyone is śūdra." [break] ...no education. Still, one is called paṇḍitjī. What is the meaning of this "paṇḍitjī"? If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇḍitjī? [laughing] [break]
Girirāja: "...ceremony takes place after the..."
Prabhupāda: That paṇḍiya is also another form of paṇḍita.
Indian man (4): [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Yes. From paṇḍiya, pāṇḍiya. From paṇḍitya, from paṇḍitya, it comes paṇḍiya.
Indian man (4): He is not a paṇḍita. He is a pukka businessman. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Mean, I say this is going on. But śāstra says if one is engaged in particular type of occupation, he should be called that. Yasya hi yal-lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam [SB 7.11.35]. To designate into certain type of varṇa, there are symptoms. That symptoms, yadi anyatra vidhiṣyeta, if it is found somewhere else, tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35], one should ascertain by the symptoms. This is the śāstric injunction.
Indian man (5): According to the work it is known.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even a man is born in the brāhmaṇa family, but if he is working as something else, so he should be... Practically also... Just like somebody is paṇḍita, brāhmaṇa, but if he is doing the work of an engineer or doctor, he is addressed as "Doctor Saheb." That is practical. "Doctor Saheb," "Engineer Saheb." Not "Paṇḍitji."
Indian man (5): By birth he may be brāhmaṇa, like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. By birth, there is no brāhmaṇa. By saṁskāra. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is...
Indian man (4): Birthright is not brāhmaṇa. No birthright.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (4): Provided he has got the particular saṁskāra. [Hindi] That is the beginning of it.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that is the beginning of saṁskāra. There is regular ceremony.
Indian man (5): But a very few people nowadays...
Prabhupāda: Still in Bengal, when the husband meets first the wife, there is saṁskāra. There is regular pūjā, pātha. Then the husband and wife meet together. We had the same saṁskāra in our family. It was going on. When we were young men, it was going on.
Indian man (4): Semen ceremony.
Indian man (6): Semen means before the birth.
Indian man (5): After pregnancy, eight or nine months, something like that.
Prabhupāda: No, that is ṣaḍ-lakṣana. That is another thing. Before sex, there is a ceremony. That is called garbhādhāna. [break]
Śrīdhara: [reading] "...ceremony takes place after the birth of the child. The family members take baths, cleanse themselves and decorate themselves with ornaments and garlands. Then they come before the child and the astrologer to hear the future life of the child. Nanda Mahārāja and other members of the family dressed and sat down in front of the birthplace. All the brāhmaṇas who were assembled there on this occasion chanted auspicious mantras." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...Mahārāja. This is kṣatriya king. Who has got so many cows to distribute? They cannot maintain even one cow. He is handed it over to the slaughterhouse. This is our position.
Śrīdhara: "He not only gave cows in charity, but hills of grain, decorated with golden-bordered garments and many ornaments."
Prabhupāda: Anna-vastra. Anna-vastra-dhana. Charity means to give in charity anna and vastra and cows. [break] ...give in charity some paper, one hundred rupees. [laughs] Another cheating. And he is also satisfied, "One hundred rupees." What is this one hundred? It is a paper, a piece of paper. [break] ...earned, black market, white market. Because when one does business, he has to do it, but it should be purified. I have seen the Marwaris, they do that. Although when earning money they don't care, they do anything, but they give in charity. [break] ...purify the body by taking bath, similarly, the wealth is purified by the charity process, giving it to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He accumulated much wealth. He brought in a big boat, all gold coins. So... So he distributed fifty percent to the brāhmaṇa and Vaiṣṇava, and twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his personal emergency. This is example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. [break] Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. So where is that vaiśya, giving protection to the cows? Although they were village men, they were very rich. That is the old Vedic civilization. Now you go to the village---all poor. The cows are skinny, people have no home, no nice cloth. This is the position. And we are still advanced, advanced. They are proud of "advanced." And here is the... Just hear the description of the village, with cows only. So how much fallen we have become, we can just imagine.
Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, in New Delhi the government has banned the use of milk in the sweet shops, and there is no more cheese or any milk products.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And there will be no more. These things will vanish. That is stated in the... Rice, wheat, milk, sugar and fruits, they will be no more available. You have to eat meat. That day is coming. But before that day comes, you go back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything is finished, all this nonsense place, full of demons.
Śrīdhara: "They possessed such an abundance of various kinds of milk products that they were throwing butter lavishly on each other's body without restriction."
Prabhupāda: Just see how rich they were.
Indian man: So much butter and all these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Throwing butter like anything. Yes.
Indian man: Now we can see also.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Śrīdhara: "Their wealth was in milk, yogurt, clarified butter and many other milk products. And by trading their agricultural products, they were rich in various kinds of jewelry, ornaments and costly dresses." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And their jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sārī and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad... You have got everything, material needs. [break] If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. [break] ...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇa. So therefore the society is so fallen. You see? There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇa and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya. [break] ...what is called proṣita bhārtṛkā. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermilion, that means she is married. When the..., what is called, division?
Indian man: Kum kum. Siti.
Prabhupāda: Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute.
Indian man: Ah, I see.
Prabhupāda: The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are vidhura, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress...
Indian man: Yes. You can recognize here. But now they are changed completely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When the girl has no this covering, that means she is virgin; she is not married. In this way all the signs are there. This is proṣita bhārtṛkā. Proṣita bhārtṛkā means one whose husband is not at home; outside. Then she will not dress, she will not take regular bath, so that people may know that her husband is not at home.
Śrīdhara: She won't take bath?
Prabhupāda: Not take bath; not with any oil. Yes. Means she wanted to avoid very good-looking. Yes, that is the idea.
Śrīdhara: "But although Rohiṇī's husband was away, she still dressed herself on this occasion." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...deliver each and every child to Kamsa, but in the case of Kṛṣṇa he did not do so. He did not deliver. He cheated him by changing. So to give protection to Kṛṣṇa, they had to do something, even it is not sanctioned. He violated, because he promised before Kaṁsa that "I shall deliver all the children," and he did it. But when there was Kṛṣṇa, he broke the promise.
Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend, it is very difficult...' "
Prabhupāda: Therefore Vasudeva is very jubilant now Kṛṣṇa is now alive, and His birthday ceremony has been performed. Therefore he is so pleased.
Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend, it is very difficult for us to live together.' " [break]
Prabhupāda: ...cows were getting grass also. Water. But you will find there is no water, there is no grass in the field. And the government is sending the cows to the slaughterhouse. This is the condition of present India.
Śrīdhara: " 'Please also let me know whether the place for...' "
Prabhupāda: In Europe, America, although they are selling the cows to the slaughterhouse, they have got enough grass and water. That I have seen. At least so long they live, the cows are comfortably maintained. But here there is no comfort for the cows. Now here the anxiety is whether the cows are getting sufficient grass and water.
Makhanlal: What's the explanation then? They are slaughtering more cows in the United States, but there is still more fortunate situation there materially.
Prabhupāda: No, that is now dwindling. The hippies are coming out. So one day it will be finished. One day it will be finished. That... It has already begun. The future hope is now becoming hippies. So who will manage this? It is already there is a problem how to maintain the industry, how to... This has become a problem. So naturally, when the..., there will be all hippies, not to work, then everything collapse. The so-called prosperity will be finished. [break] Nobody is working sincerely. Here also in India, all government servants, they do not work. The manager of the government coal company said that "The workers in the mine, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase the price." So now, everything dependent on one another, so if one side there is noncooperation, the whole thing will collapse. [break] ...college, they don't work. One thing is that draft board chasing all young men. [end]