Girirāja: [reading] "...want to die. It does not matter whether one is a young man or an old man. So before death takes place, we must be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." [Kṛṣṇa Book] [break]
Yaśomatīnandana: They will think it is fairy tale.
Prabhupāda: Fairy tale?
Yaśomatīnandana: Because they don't believe anything that they cannot see with their gross senses.
Prabhupāda: [chuckles] That is another foolishness. You cannot see in the sky so many things. Now this plane is going on. It may be unseen for some time. So that is the only reason? Because they cannot see? They cannot see milk? They have seen milk or not?
Yaśomatīnandana: Their experience of sea is that it has saltwater, salty water. They have not experienced...
Prabhupāda: No, this is water. As water is also liquid, milk is also liquid. So if there is ocean of water, why not ocean of milk?
Yaśomatīnandana: There can be, but...
Prabhupāda: There can be, yes. So how they can say that there cannot be?
Yadubara: They would say that "The milk comes from the cow. So how could it be an ocean?"
Prabhupāda: Water comes from man. If you pass urine, there is water. What is the difference? The water also comes from...
Yaśomatīnandana: It is just that it is beyond their experience.
Prabhupāda: [japa] That experience should be gathered from authority.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. I also tell them sometimes that "Did you see your grandfather?" They say, "Well, no." "But you still accept that he was there." They say, "Yes, because my father tells me. Somebody else says." Similarly, I said that "Even though you didn't see your grandfather, you accept that there was a grandfather." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...contradiction of the law of gravitation. According to our śāstra the planets are held on the hood of Ananta. He is carrying. But they say they are staying on account of law of gravitation.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is Kṛṣṇa's supreme energy, as you explain, tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ yathā vinimaya [SB 1.1.1]. There is water, He creates. He can do anything. The scientists may make any laws.
Prabhupāda: No. But they cannot use that law. They cannot float any other thing in the air by this law. Still they say, "There is law of gravitation."
Girirāja: [reading] "They were also informed of the external..." [break]
Prabhupāda: He had to accept so much dowry. How many thousands horses?
Girirāja: Fifteen thousand.
Prabhupāda: So who will take dowry like this? [laughs] And how many? Four hundred elephants. Who can maintain four hundred elephants?
Girirāja: "While the bride and bridegroom were passing..."
Prabhupāda: Nowadays horses and elephants are not selling, because nobody can maintain. Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: Only the zoos.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...animal-eaters, later on they will not find animals to eat. They will eat themselves. Because animals are not being maintained, they may be, according to Darwin's theory, extinct.
Satsvarūpa: In the US and everywhere they maintain them just for slaughter. So will that dwindle out?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Slaughtering, slaughtering, when there will be no more, where this question of slaughtering?
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. When there are no more animals, where will they produce? [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: They maintain elephant also for slaughtering?
Yaśomatīnandana: When I was in America I heard last year there was a beef shortage. There was a meat shortage.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Meat shortage, yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: They import a lot of beef from Australia.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Go on reading.
Indian man: Here also scarcity will start. Slaughtering means... [break]
Prabhupāda: This example is given. Suppose we are walking. This step, when I assure that "This is all right; it is not, it will not go down," then I take up this. Then again this. This example is given. Similarly, change of body like that. As soon as it is settled up what kind of body he is going to accept or which is being offered to him, daiva-netreṇa, by higher authorities, then this man leaves this body and again enters in the womb of the body which he is destined to get. This is the process of death.
Yadubara: Is that immediate, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Immediate. Just like immediate I am walking. When it is fixed up, then I take up. Then when it is fixed up, I take up, like this. Immediately.
Yaśomatīnandana: What about the hell? How about hell. How does the jīva soul go to hell?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They go. Those who are going to hell, that is fixed up very quickly. It doesn't take much time. Hell means he is getting the next body, hellish body. That's all. Suppose he is going to get the hellish body to become the worm of stool, so in that way he enters the worm, mother worm, to get the body and enjoy the hell. That's all.
Satsvarūpa: Don't they sometimes have to go to Yamarāja first for practice?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is daiva-netreṇa. These things are finished very quickly. And if it takes little time, then this man who is dying, he remains in coma and does not die. Because the judgment is going on, the decision waiting, coma. You have seen sometimes a man is in coma for seven days, eight days? Yes. That means his judgment is going on, that... Such kind of death means very sinful death. Not yet settled up; very complicated case. [chuckles] Therefore it takes time.
Yadubara: What about persons who die in their sleep? Is that a sinful death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dream or awakened, everything is dream---gross dream and subtle dream. That's all. This is also dream. What do you mean by dream? Dream means existent for a little period. That's all. So night dream is for two hours and this dream is for twenty-four hours.
Yaśomatīnandana: So in other words, when it says that one goes to hell, any lower species is also like hell. If one is going to assume a dog's body, then does he go to hell before he assumes a dog's body?
Prabhupāda: There is statement like that, that one is put into the hellish condition for practicing little, and then he is put into the womb of such mother.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is that a long duration of practice or just..., very short?
Prabhupāda: No, very short. Short mean their short. It may take little more time.
Girirāja: Now they have machines that when the person is in coma, the machines artificially keep the heart beating and the other processes...
Prabhupāda: Then heart beating will go on, either you apply machine or no machine. Heart beating... But when the heart stops, no machine can revive it. So what is the use of machine? But by nature's way, when the heart beating will stop, no machine can help. That is not possible.
Girirāja: So the doctors face a dilemma, that they keep the heart going by the machine, but they don't know whether the patient is actually living or dead. So they are afraid to stop the machine. They don't know how to decide when to stop the machine.
Prabhupāda: But when they stop it...?
Girirāja: Then the patient is dead. [laughter]
Yaśomatīnandana: That is modern science, so imperfect. They don't even know whether a person is live or dead.
Prabhupāda: What do they know? They know something, but everyone knows. Even the birds and beasts, they also know something.
Girirāja: "In this way, one after another the body changes and the soul transmigrates. See how the plant worms change from one twig to another so carefully. Similarly the living entity changes his body as soon as the higher authorities decide on his next body." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the modern civilization is that they have no knowledge about the change of body. Almost ninety-nine percent people, they do not know.
Yaśomatīnandana: Even the so-called religions. The religions even don't teach.
Prabhupāda: They do not know.
Girirāja: "This body is exactly like one of the bodies which we always see in dreams. During our dream of sleep we create so many bodies according to mental creation." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the psychologically whatever mental condition we prepare throughout this life, that means you are preparing next life, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam tyajanty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. The situation of the mind at the time of death will carry you to the similar body. Just like one who likes to eat some special foodstuff, so... Suppose the meat-eaters. So the mentality is, "How to eat meat, how to eat meat." So they are given next life the canine teeth to give facility for eating meat. Canine teeth means dogs, cats, tigers, like that.
Girirāja: "Unless we have a particular type of body, we cannot enjoy or suffer according to our mental proclivities inherited from the previous life." [break]
Prabhupāda: ...another example. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ [Bṛhad-araṅyaka Upaniṣad 4.3.15]. It is said that this living entity is untouched by this material body. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. So the example is given that the moon reflected on water appears to be moving, but moon is separate from that movement. [Hindi] [japa] Go on. [Hindi] [break] ...good example. Unnecessarily he thinks that "I belong to this country. I belong to this society." That means he creates another body. And if he knows perfectly well that "I do not belong to any of these bodies," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That teaching required, that every being is unattached to this body. Therefore yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape... Anyone who is maintaining himself under bodily concept of life, he is no better than the animals. [break] The demonic person does not accept any good lesson. Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya na śāntaye [Hitopadeśa 3.4]. Because he is foolish, if you give him good advice, he will be angry. Still, we have to do that.
Girirāja: But for preaching it is better to find innocent persons.
Prabhupāda: Yes, better field, those who are innocent. That is the duty of the preacher, four things = īśvare tad-adhīneṣu baliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca [SB 11.2.46]. The preacher should see four things. First of all īśvara, the Supreme Person, God. So that vision must be there. He knows what is īśvara, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then tad-adhīneṣu, those who have taken shelter of that īśvara. That means devotees. Tad-adhīneṣu. And then baliśeṣu. Baliśeṣu means those who are innocent, have no sufficient knowledge. Innocent. And dviṣatsu. And there is always a class of men who are envious of God, dviṣat. Dviṣat means envious. So a preacher has to see these four classes of men, or three classes. One, īśvara, and the other three classes. So he has to behave like that. To behave with īśvara-prema, how to love, that is his business---how to increase love for the Supreme. Prema. Maitrī, how to make friendship with the devotees. And to the innocent---kṛpā, how to become merciful. And to the envious---upekṣa, negligence, not to talk with them. Four behaviors. Īśvare tad-a... This is madhyama adhikārī. And the position of the preacher is madhyama adhikārī. Therefore they have to point out, "Here is a jealous man, envious man." But people do not want it. They say, "Why you are pointing out? Why you are pointing out?" But this is business of the preacher. Otherwise how he will preach?
Girirāja: They want to be artificially the uttama adhikārī, to see everyone as nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everyone as nice, except himself. [break] Uttama adhikārī vision, that everyone is nice, then the preacher is also nice. Why you find out fault with the preacher? So imitation uttama adhikārī will not help. [break]
Girirāja: "...those who are demoniac or atheistic by nature can hardly assimilate any good instruction, however authorized it may be. That is the difference between a demigod and demon." [break]
Prabhupāda: Therefore, at the present moment, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. Demons, they are too much attached to material enjoyment, bhoga and aiśvarya. So they cannot take to it. Therefore our general principle is to perform saṅkīrtana, not to talk philosophy. When one is interested, then he can talk philosophy. Otherwise this talk should be amongst inner circles, with the students and the teacher, those who are submissive. Otherwise it should be avoided. It will create misunderstanding.
Satsvarūpa: What about programs at schools and colleges? This philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Because they are innocent. The children, they are innocent. So if possible, give them some enlightenment, kṛpā, to become merciful upon them. So far children are concerned, they hear, they try to learn. Just like in Dallas, whatever we say, they accept. They do not protest. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then?
Girirāja: "Vasudeva thought of his wife as follows = 'For the present let me save the life of Devakī, and later on, if there are children, I shall see how to save them.' He further thought..."
Prabhupāda: This is the consideration. By policy if he could save his wife, that first. He was following like that...
Girirāja: " 'If in the future I get a child who can kill Kaṁsa, just as Kaṁsa is thinking, then both Devakī and the child will be saved, because the law of providence is inconceivable. But now, some way or other, let me save the life of Devakī.' " [break]
Prabhupāda: ...jumps. In the village also this experience, when there is fire, it jumps over another house, leaving one house in the middle.
Girirāja: "Similarly, a living entity may be very careful and fearful in the matter of executing his duties, but it is still very difficult for him to know what type of body he is going to get in the next life. Mahārāja Bharata was very faithfully executing the duties of self-realization, but by chance he contacted temporary affection for a deer, and he had to accept his next life in the body of a deer." [break]
Prabhupāda: Yes. [indistinct] He was truthful. He used to bring all the sons as soon as born to Kaṁsa, and he was killing.
Girirāja: "Kaṁsa knew the value of Vasudeva's word of honor, and he was convinced by his argument. For the time being he desisted from the heinous killing of his sister. Thus Vasudeva was pleased and praised the decision of Kaṁsa. In this way he returned to his home. After due course of time Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to eight male children as well as..." [break]
Prabhupāda: Demons are known as sura-dviṣām, sura-dviṣām, those who are envious of the demigods. Sura-dvisa. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. This word is used in the Bhāgavata: "just to cheat the demons," sammohāya sura-dviṣām. [break] That is the instruction of Nārada. You see? Then?
Girirāja: "Within the prison, shackled in iron chains, Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to a male child year after year. Kaṁsa, thinking each of the babies to be the incarnation of Viṣṇu, killed them one after another."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He killed his brother. He was merciful upon the father only, kept him in the prison. Otherwise he killed the whole family---brother, brother's son and everyone. [break] ...present kings, such incidences are very many in the history, killing everyone. There is another story, that Pana, Pana?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The child was to be killed and the...
Yaśomatīnandana: The servant said that...
Prabhupāda: Yes. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. The maidservant, she changed her own son and kept the real royal family, defended him. Her child was killed.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is it a true story?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? [break] ...and maternal uncle of Rāvaṇa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Did Kaṁsa also achieve the grace? He was immediately transferred to the spiritual planets after he was killed?
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]
Girirāja: ...being killed by Viṣṇu in his previous life he wasn't transferred?
Prabhupāda: No, three times he had to take birth. Hiraṇyākṣa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is that Jaya-Vijaya? [indistinct].
Yaśomatīnandana: He was one of them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. [japa] [break] ...becomes envious of others, they take birth as dog, snake, sarpa krūra khala krūra. So much subtle laws are working. They do not know.
Yaśomatīnandana: Their limited intelligence was [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: Limited intelligence, yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: Ah, paramo nirmatsarāṇām satāṁ vāstavya vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Not for anyone. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. That means devotees. Devotees are nirmatsarā, not envious. Otherwise, everyone is envious. [break] ...like a vehicle like this. In U.P. there is, called ṭāṅgā.
Yaśomatīnandana: Surat also, they have a lot of these.
Prabhupāda: Tāṅgā? Like this?
Yaśomatīnandana: Not like this. [end]