Dr. Patel: ...the whole world, but according to you said, lately [indistinct] say.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You don't find in any dictionary. It is not old. It is...
Indian man (1): It is like daridra-nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Like daridra-nārāyaṇa, yes. You are intelligent. [laughs] It is another manufacturing, "daridra." Janārdana... Janatai is not Janārdana. We say, yeṣāṁ pakṣe janārdana. Yeṣāṁ pakṣe janārdana. "All glories to the party whose side Janārdana is there." Yeṣāṁ pakṣe janārdana.
Indian man (1): Pakṣe, pakṣe janārdana.
Prabhupāda: Pāṇḍu-putrāṇāṁ yeṣāṁ pakṣe janārdana. Pāṇḍu-putra, the Pāṇḍavas, are glorified because on their side, Kṛṣṇa is there. Therefore, victory for them. One very big doctor of Allahabad, my old friend, Dr. G. Ghosh, he is also D.T.M., and M.A.B. [indistinct]. He wants to join this movement.
Dr. Patel: Haribol. There will be one doctor, he'll look to the health and hygiene of the inmates.
Prabhupāda: Why not yourself?
Dr. Patel: On that point I'm going to be very [indistinct]. That gentleman...
Prabhupāda: These rascals, asuras, they do not know which is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduḥ. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing = no illicit sex. It is nivṛtti. Nivṛtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivṛtti. Just hear me. And pravṛtti, take to Kṛṣṇa. This is pravṛtti, nivṛtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ asura-jana [Bg. 16.7]. They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.
Dr. Patel: Na ācāro na satyaṁ te śuddha vidyate.
Prabhupāda: Na ācāraḥ. Personally they also do not do anything, ah? They're addict..., they addict to drinking, addict to prostitution, and they, by votes, they become leaders. So how people will be happy? Asura-jana. Live by asura-jana. This is the whole chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. They, they are making their plan. What is their plan-making? Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye manoratham [Bg. 16.13]. This is the only plan. "Now I have got this bank balance, and tomorrow further increase, and tomorrow further increase." Increase, increase, increase, his life decreased, and kicked out of this... That's all.
Indian man (2): That plan becomes out of date next year.
Prabhupāda: Ah? [laughs] Yes. That "He's my enemy. He's my friend. I'll kill so many enemies. Now one enemy is still there... Who is richer than me? Who is wiser than me?" These are the plans of the asura-jana.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit] Sadṛśo māyā [Bg. 16.13–15].
Prabhupāda: Sadṛśo mayā. Yes. "I'll protect my money in this way. I shall keep money in this way so that my sons, grandsons and great-grandsons will enjoy. And I am going to become a cat and dog, doesn't matter. [laughs] My grandson will enjoy." These are the plans. Where this rascal is going, he has no information. He has no information where he is going, but he is making provisions for his great-grandson. He does not know who is coming to be his great-grandson. This is asura program. You ask these asuras that "If you do not believe in the next life, then why you are working so hard?" They reply, "For the next generation." Next generation. And if you do not believe in the next life, what is the meaning of next generation? They say like that. This is the asuric civilization. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram [Bg. 16.19]. Yes. So...
Dr. Patel: Āsurīm...
Prabhupāda: So... Punar janmani. They'll never be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān mate. They'll never be able to understand. And remain in darkness, and transmigrate from one body to another, and this business will go on.
Dr. Patel: But then how will they come up?
Prabhupāda: When they tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. When they come to this stage to understand things by surrendering. But they will never surrender. That is their business. Huh?
Indian man (4): But the Lord uses a heavy stick, then they surrender.
Prabhupāda: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by māyā every moment, but because they are fool, they say, "I'm not surrendered." This is... In Bengali is called vihaya. Vihaya. No, no... Shameless. He's being kicked every moment, but he's so shameless that he's declared, "I'm independent. I'm independent." Shameless. [Bengali]
Dr. Patel: Just like those dogs [indistinct]...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asura. This is the characteristic of the asuras. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still they are declaring, "There is no God. I'm independent. I'm independent." Every moment he's dying, and still he thinks, "I shall live forever." This is asura. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca [Bg. 16.7]. So this is required, pravṛtti and nivṛtti, to know.
Indian man (4): What is pravṛtti?
Dr. Patel: Pravṛtti means overstepping God.
Prabhupāda: Pravṛtti means inclination for doing something. That is called pravṛtti.
Indian man (4): Nivṛtti means...?
Prabhupāda: Nivṛtti means to stop. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām [Manu-saṁhitā 5.56].
Indian man (4): Nivṛtti...?
Prabhupāda: Nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām. Here, at the present moment---not at the present moment; always in the material world---the desire is that "I shall become the greatest enjoyer. I shall become king, I shall become minister... And at last I shall become God." [laughter] You see? So this the false pravṛtti. And one who can cut down this rascal propensity, he's successful. But "I'm neither a king, neither a minister, neither I'm going to become God. I'm a teeny living entity, being kicked by the māyā, like football." When he comes to this understanding, he is in knowledge.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he is so shameless than in spite of being kicked like that, always he's thinking, "I'm God. I'm independent. I can do anything," like that. This is asura. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Ah?
Indian man: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.
na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
[Bg. 7.15]
Because they've taken to this asuric principle, they do not surrender. This is the disease, material disease. Here is Kṛṣṇa, the perfect leader, and they're going this side, that leader, that leader, that leader. Why? The perfect leader is there. His instruction is there, in all fields of life, any field of life, and ultimately spiritual realization. But they will not take. They'll not take. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Where is your book? You can read.
Dr. Patel: Oh, he forgot, and I brought another book. I brought that Siksha-vadri.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Dr. Patel: There is a name of Kṛṣṇa in every page. I told you the other day.
Prabhupāda: Siksha-vadri.
Dr. Patel: It's a quote of paṇḍita for all Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: Read something.
Dr. Patel: I'll read the beginning, and then from the middle. [reads ślokas] That is the beginning, and how it goes, then...
Prabhupāda: Very good. So why did that person said that Sahajanand Swaminarayan is the topmost?
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: No, that is Buddhism. That is not Vaiṣṇavism.
Dr. Patel: Then if they stop them, what he said, [Sanskrit].
Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism.
Dr. Patel: That is right. But he's not Buddhist, he's Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: But he's taking the Buddhist philosophy.
Dr. Patel: He's not taking the Buddhist philosophy. In what way he has?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, because in the śāstra, in the Vedas, it is stated that sometimes it is recommended animal sacrifice.
Dr. Patel: He did not want to...
Prabhupāda: No, no, he says, even if he stated...
Dr. Patel: Should not take it.
Prabhupāda: No, that means he's denying the authority of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: He's denying the authority of Vaiṣṇava...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Vaiṣṇava does not say...
Dr. Patel: He denied the authority of Buddhist, and not Vedas, see what he says...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You read it.
Dr. Patel: Na vaksyam sarva-tamasaṁ yajña-śiṣṭam abhipacchet[?].
Prabhupāda: Ah! Even it is yajña-śiṣṭam...
Dr. Patel: Then also you should not eat.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: You should not eat.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: That is what it says.
Prabhupāda: That is means denying the authority of Vedas. Vedas say you can eat meat after yajña.
Dr. Patel: But he says no, you should not eat.
Prabhupāda: But therefore he's denying the authority of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: You should..., you should not eat meat even Veda says.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he's denying.
Dr. Patel: Yes, but doesn't matter. I don't want to eat meat even the way... Even if you sacrifice a goat here and offer...
Prabhupāda: You cannot...
Dr. Patel: Na caiva...
Prabhupāda: ...deny the authority of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: Vedas...
Prabhupāda: You may not eat, that is a different thing. But the Vedic authority... Just like, suppose the law says, "This man should be hanged." If you say, "No, even if he is criminal, he should not be hanged," that means denying the authority of law. You cannot say this.
Dr. Patel: That's right. All right.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (2): So you must eat their meat if it is...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no... You should not eat.
Dr. Patel: That is what he says. You should not eat.
Prabhupāda: That's... You see? He does not know what is the scheme of Veda. You cannot stop meat-eating all of a sudden. But you can raise some restriction. These rascal who are meat-eaters, if you say, "Don't eat meat," he'll never do that. Therefore, "Yes, you can eat meat just after offering to the goddess Kālī," and in this way, that means once in the month, that means restricted. Restricted. So Vedas means they're taking gradually, not that, like a foolish, "You don't do this." You cannot do that. That is Vedic authority. The Vedas are meant for everyone. Those who are meat-eaters, you cannot stop them all of a sudden. Similarly, drunkards. You cannot stop them, "Don't drink." They'll not hear you. Therefore restriction = "Yes, you can drink, after offering to the Devī," and that means restriction. So what is the meaning of marriage? Because sex like the cats and dogs, stop it; just get married. In this way. Otherwise, you may say, "No marriage." Just like, the other day these sannyāsīs come, because some woman was sitting, they'll not enter. But I saw their teeth was so unclean, and the dresses were never washed. But they have got this restriction, no seeing of woman.
Indian man (3): [Sanskrit]
Prabhupāda: You cannot deny the authority of Vedas. Suppose you are following ahiṁsā, you cannot say that "State should not anymore hang anybody." That you cannot say. You follow.
Dr. Patel: Shall I read it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Vabhicaro na kartavyaḥ pumvi strī...[?]
Prabhupāda: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he decried the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected.
Prabhupāda: That... Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Yes, Buddha, I mean to say, criticized, criticize the yajña-vidhi. Yajña-vidhi. Yajña-vidhi you cannot criticize. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Karma-bandhana. So yajña must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, "This is good, this is bad," that will not help you.
Dr. Patel: Vetas pi pavitranam svadhinam ca tasam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindha saddhya...[?]
Prabhupāda: But why he's making nindā? That you don't eat, even it is... Now in the first you said, you don't..., you cannot kill animal, even if it is...
Dr. Patel: I, I follow, even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajña, I am not going to kill it, that's all. That is my personal...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws.
Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the Vedic law...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes... You said api, even it is enjoined in the Vedas...
Dr. Patel: I don't think so.
Prabhupāda: Why not? It is clear, it is clear. You don't think, but the writing is there.
Dr. Patel: The writing...
Prabhupāda: Writing is there.
Dr. Patel: The writing can be interpreted in a lot of ways.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. You can interpret. No, no, no, no. We are not interpreting.
Dr. Patel: We are not going to take that way.
Prabhupāda: We cannot... As soon as you say api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas, don't do it, that means decrying the Vedas. What do you think?
Dr. Patel: You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaiṣṇavas..., we won't do it.
Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava is forbidden.
Dr. Patel: But then, this is a Vaiṣṇava way, forbidden to eat the meat.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But therefore you cannot decry the Vedas.
Dr. Patel: But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of...
Prabhupāda: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done...
Dr. Patel: This is tantra, not Vedas. Vedas don't want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Are you able to do it?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: By tantra they were killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue.
Prabhupāda: Tantra, tantra... I do not know what kind of tantra...
Dr. Patel: ...does not believe in killing animal and eating it even... Vedas say you can eat, I will not. And I don't mind decrying the Vedas that way, if you say so, sir. I am so strong a Vaiṣṇava, I don't think I can allow animal to be killed. I'm very sorry to say this.
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: If the Vedas say, "Kill," I won't. I won't, don't want that.
Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won't kill an animal, being a Vaiṣṇava myself.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas.
Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of Vedas, sir...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...excuse me, I will bring the Vedas before you. These I have studied.
Prabhupāda: You can manufacture your own way...
Dr. Patel: I'm not manufacturing. I'm not manufacturing. Nowhere Vedas say you kill the animals and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again.
Prabhupāda: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written injunction of Vedic...
Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you're sacrificing your own...
Prabhupāda: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. You may not like. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.
Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaiṣṇava will not say this. Ideal Vaiṣṇava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat---even in England as a student of London University---meat.
Prabhupāda: I'm recommending you to eat meat?
Dr. Patel: No, you eat the.... Indirectly so.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.
Dr. Patel: No, I'm not going to take this lesson, kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.
Prabhupāda: That is meant for others.
Dr. Patel: Ācchā! Not for me.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaiṣṇava you can't tolerate...
Prabhupāda: I don't say that Vaiṣṇava. Why I'll say? Why you talk like that?
Indian man (3): [indistinct] Swāmījī told his disciples not to take meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Indian man (2): No.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi] ...allow.
Indians: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Allowed for the rascals and fools.
Dr. Patel: Fools, but we are not rascals. So he...
Prabhupāda: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way.
Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools.
Prabhupāda: Gradually, gradually. Just like...
Dr. Patel: As a Vaiṣṇava we can't tolerate meat.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, but...
Dr. Patel: I can...
Prabhupāda: ...you cannot...
Dr. Patel: ...not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: Even they go, that does not mean they're going to kill animal.
Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasāda is offered, they won't take it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, "Don't take this prasāda even if it is offered."
Prabhupāda: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kālī. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it.
Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that I reject...
Dr. Patel: "My followers do not take meat even kālī-yajña."
Prabhupāda: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda...
Dr. Patel: Kālī's temple, Kālī's temple is not Vedic, but it is tantric, tantric.
Prabhupāda: That you say. That you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Nārada Pañcarātra.
Dr. Patel: That's right, but we are following Nārada Pañcarātra, aren't we?
Prabhupāda: Tantra.
Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaiṣṇavas in India, Nārada Pañcarātra is the very fiber around which we all revolve. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...astray. We are not advocating meat-eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don't eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the Vedas. That you cannot do.
Dr. Patel: But this is not Vedic, eh...
Prabhupāda: This is Vedic.
Dr. Patel: ...that you can...
Prabhupāda: In the yajña, not that all yajña. But in the... som yajñas? there is recommendation.
Dr. Patel: So why do you want to...
Prabhupāda: It is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ [Bg. 3.13].
Dr. Patel: Yajña-śiṣṭa aśinaḥ. Not meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Aśinaḥ.
Indian man (3): ...mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ.
Prabhupāda: So this procession is there. Those who are rascals and rogues will meat eat.
Dr. Patel: But we are not rascals and rogues.
Prabhupāda: No, no, those who will eat meat, to bring them gradually to the platform of perfection. That is allowed.
Dr. Patel: We are a Vaiṣṇava. As Vaiṣṇavas we are not allowed to do this.
Prabhupāda: You cannot stop that. Suppose you..., there are so many nonviolence philosophies, Buddha, Jains, but have they been able to stop this meat-eating?
Dr. Patel: The Vaiṣṇavas, they are to only perform those yajñas called...
Prabhupāda: Yajñas for satisfaction of Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: And that, that is also... Viṣṇu-yajña is there, there is no sacrifice of animals.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You do not know. There is.
Indian man (4): Yajña is not necessary at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (4): Yajña is only for getting..., to gain certain aims.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavatam you'll find the dākṣa-yajña, dākṣa-yajña. Dākṣa-yajña. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Dakṣa Mahārāja.
Indian man (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is described in the Bhāgavatam.
Indian man (4): Yajñas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. That is our...
Indian man (4): The saṅkīrtana be our yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] It is stated in the śāstra, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Kalau, in this age...
Indian man (4): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat-eaters, nor we do... [laughs]
Prabhupāda: He's going in a different way.
Dr. Patel: As a Vaiṣṇava. No, that is what I'm...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You do not understand, that is the defect.
Dr. Patel: That is my misfortune. That is my misfortune, because I am a little thick-skulled man. But then you explain me what I should behave.
Prabhupāda: Suppose you don't believe in meat-eating, can you stop?
Dr. Patel: I don't want to stop. For your followers you say that don't eat meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Like that he has told us, "Don't eat meat."
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: You don't want to eat, do yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So don't call it Buddhist.
Prabhupāda: But that doesn't... No, this is Buddhist philosophy; you do not know it.
Dr. Patel: I'm not talking about Vaiṣṇava philosophy and Buddhist...
Prabhupāda: This is Buddhist philosophy, that even if the Buddha, Lord Buddha, said, "Even if it is recommended in the Vedas, I don't accept Vedas." That is Buddhist philosophy.
Dr. Patel: He accepts Veda. He said the next moment. Now we read it. I've read it before you.
Prabhupāda: You'll see, it is stated, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means the Vedas. "There is recommendation of sacrifice, but you have decried them."
Dr. Patel: He has not decried them. Devatam, devata te ta vi pranam sadvinam ca satam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindā svadya na ca tapi[?].
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So this is nindā. If you say, "Even it is recommended in the Vedas," that is nindā. If you say, "Even it is recommended by the Vedas," that means Vedas are mistaken; you are right. You do not know what is the purpose of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: What is the purpose of Vedas?
Prabhupāda: The purpose is gradually to bring them...
Dr. Patel: But he...
Prabhupāda: ...not that all of a sudden that you say, "No, you cannot eat."
Dr. Patel: He..., all of a sudden he talks about Vaiṣṇavas who are above all these low-class fellows. Vaiṣṇavas are much above all those meat-eaters, then he is instructing the Vaiṣṇavas, "Don't eat meat."
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavas should go to sacrifice. [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: There is no... Hindu, aren't the Hindus...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You are mixing the Hindu, Muslim and Vaiṣṇava...
Dr. Patel: I don't think I am so fool like that, to mix up Hinduism with Buddhism. I think you have little be...
Prabhupāda: But you don't hear me, that is the difference.
Dr. Patel: I'm hearing you perfectly well, but I'm very quick to grasp it. That is the misfortune of me.
Prabhupāda: You are quick to deviate, that is the point. You do not hear.
Dr. Patel: How can you... [laughs] How can you say I'm in...
Prabhupāda: That is the... That is your alpa-medhasaḥ. You cannot understand. What I'm speaking, you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: He... That example I'm giving, that the law is that a murderer should be hanged. If you fight, "I don't care for this law, because you are hanging one person," that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point.
Dr. Patel: My point is no meat-eating by Vaiṣṇavas. My point is that.
Prabhupāda: You, you... You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death...
Dr. Patel: That, that's all right.
Prabhupāda: ...but for that reason you cannot condemn the law.
Dr. Patel: But he's not condemning the law. He said, "Don't make the yajña." As he said, "Don't make the yajña," he said, "Make the yajña, but don't eat the meat." That is not condemning the law.
Prabhupāda: All right. [break] [indistinct]You cannot say the law is only for the Vaiṣṇava.
Dr. Patel: He does not say that don't... [break] Nonkilling and not...
Prabhupāda: You are mistaken there.
Dr. Patel: I'm not mistaken. I don't think I'm such a fool as that.
Prabhupāda: You're mistaken there, that this yajña is meant for other person, not for you.
Dr. Patel: That is why I say that we are not preventing them to do the yajña, but we are not...
Prabhupāda: You cannot surrender.
Dr. Patel: That is we are not asking them to break the law.
Prabhupāda: That is his preventing, that even it is recommended...
Dr. Patel: He's not preventing his followers not to eat meat. Isn't it? I think I have not...
Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I'm all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...to go and worship any other demigod. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they're going to worship. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam.
Indian man (3): Śaraṇaṁ vraja.
Prabhupāda: We are simply...
Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our...
Prabhupāda: Mām ekam. Only Kṛṣṇa. [break]
Dr. Patel: So āśrama varṇāśrama dharmo [indistinct].
Indian man (2): Cārvāka said.
Prabhupāda: Somebody is bigger than Kṛṣṇa. Then what you'll do?
Dr. Patel: They're going, "All right, you may talk anything nonsense." It is nonsense, "You are a fool and a rascal and a rogue, and what you are calling so many words." He is that. And they believe him, that's all.
Prabhupāda: He yesterday talked like that.
Dr. Patel: Then... Then believe it.
Indian man (2): They say they're..., Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Swaminarayan.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they talk like that.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't think. They are not... They are small boys.
Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be, they represented the Swaminarayan, they said.
Dr. Patel: They have not represented the real thing...
Prabhupāda: "Swaminarayan is more than Kṛṣṇa."
Dr. Patel: Tomorrow these boys say you are more than Kṛṣṇa, then...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, they came to talk with me, representing Swaminarayan.
Dr. Patel: I represent Swaminarayan. Let us talk.
Prabhupāda: That's alright. It is difficult to who it. Who represent. You say something, he says something...
Dr. Patel: He's wrong... What Swaminarayan has written is right or wrong. That is his own handwriting. His own writing. Kṛṣṇa... [break] That is the injunction. I mean. Now, those fools are right or I am right?
Prabhupāda: Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇa-pūta-hari-kathāmṛtaṁ [Sanātana Gosvāmī].
Dr. Patel: Mm, that's it.
Prabhupāda: Śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam [Hari-bhakti-vilāsa].
Dr. Patel: Śravaṇam, same thing. Don't hear anything we...[break] Be damn you must not [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava does not like to kill, but Kṛṣṇa Himself killed so many demons.
Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa has got the right to kill. [laughter] He can create them also.
Prabhupāda: He induced Arjuna to kill, His devotee.
Indian man (2): He was the main killer in that..., on the background.
Prabhupāda: Do you think that killing is bad?
Dr. Patel: No, no, no... Yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is right, and whatever we say is wrong. We say kill the animal is wrong. Kṛṣṇa says kill the animal is right. Okay?
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, I mean to say, do you mean to say killing an animal is bad, and killing a man is not bad?
Dr. Patel: No, if Kṛṣṇa says, "Kill the man, kill this man," then it's right. If I say, "Kill this man," is wrong.
Prabhupāda: I mean, Kṛṣṇa killed some animals also.
Dr. Patel: Then it is right. Whatever Kṛṣṇa does is right, because He has got the power to create. I know.
Prabhupāda: That's right. That's all right.
Dr. Patel: There is nothing that's killed. What is killed? Kill is body; ātmā is sanātana.
Prabhupāda: You abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: That is what we are abiding, but that is...
Prabhupāda: Not killing and not killing.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say.
Prabhupāda: These are material conceptions. If Kṛṣṇa says, "You kill," you should kill.
Dr. Patel: Shall I read this? Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇāvatāra...
Prabhupāda: Śāstra can say...
Dr. Patel: Some nonsense śāstras are there, who can say...
Prabhupāda: But that is not śāstra. Why you are accepting that śāstra? [laughter] He's nonsense. If he accepts something nonsense śāstra, he becomes nonsense. Our plea is let us learn from the standard book, Bhagavad-gītā, and study, not bring anything else. That will give us proper guidance. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...that is completely verse.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva-, rajo-, tamo-guṇa, some of them are śūdras, some of them are kṣatriyas, some of them are vaiśyas, some of them are brāhmaṇa; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the śūdras in the Veda, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required---for the śūdras, not for you.
Dr. Patel: No, but then he... is gathering for all, śūdras...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ [Bg. 2.45].
Dr. Patel: That is the māyā.
Prabhupāda: By killing, yes. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Your aim should be to go above the qualities of material.
Dr. Patel: That is what he wants.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas are describing...
Dr. Patel: They are traigunya and you are gunya.
Prabhupāda: When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the śūdras, because it is meant for the śūdras, you cannot condemn it.
Dr. Patel: But then you should not take part in it. Then you should not condemn.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. No, no, my point is that something is meant for the śūdras.
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. But he has not condemned the yajña; he has made the injunction that you must not take part...
Prabhupāda: Just like. Just like in a drug shop there are... [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are many kinds of drugs. So something is not meant for a certain patient. But he cannot say, "I don't like this drug."
Dr. Patel: Right. [Sanskrit]
Prabhupāda: That is also drug...
Dr. Patel: Right.
Prabhupāda: For certain persons, for a certain patient.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]
Prabhupāda: But maybe it was being done by somebody.
Dr. Patel: They must be. In those days... Those were the departurous days when he was born. [Sanskrit]
Prabhupāda: This thing is being done, I know, in a big temple in Mathurā. When there is big crowd, they put off the electric, and the rascal goes within the woman. I know that. In Vārāṇasī also, in Viśvanātha Temple. They do like this.
Dr. Patel: I know, I have seen. That is why this injunction. So now you are satisfied that these injunctions are right.
Prabhupāda: No, you... My point was that because something is not meant for me, and it is in the law...
Dr. Patel: We don't want to proscribe it; we want to...
Prabhupāda: We are not servant.
Dr. Patel: That is what he meant. "My followers, Vaiṣṇavas, will not partake into such things. Let others do what they do."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it.
Dr. Patel: But then you became fiery.
Prabhupāda: No, we can preach. No, my point was that because it is not applicable to me, I shall condemn.
Dr. Patel: That you don't eat, that's not condemning. Let them go and do their own... [break].
Prabhupāda: In the lower status, so they require.
Dr. Patel: So, but you are also as weak as I am, both of us, so we... Ācchā. [laughs] They are wrong, but you are...
Prabhupāda: How can I know they are wrong?
Dr. Patel: We are reading what he has written.
Prabhupāda: "Swaminarayan is better than Kṛṣṇa."
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong. That is... You, tomorrow you will say, "He was fool." Suppose these boys tomorrow say... Suppose tomorrow these boys...
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] no condemn, because they represented.
Dr. Patel: Yes, they're representing. But I'm representing also. He also represents. We both are. We are Vaiṣṇavas bhaktas.
Prabhupāda: He accepted that...[laughs]
Dr. Patel: No, he's wrong, because he has not studied. I have studied.
Prabhupāda: Your representative yesterday told me something different.
Dr. Patel: They are boys. [everyone speaking at same time]
Devotee: Why are they allowed to learn like that?
Dr. Patel: You are also learning; you are also...
Prabhupāda: What they said?
Indian man (2): We are not perfect as disciple...
Prabhupāda: Then it is bad influence, this type of mūrti.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]
Prabhupāda: And create Kṛṣṇa. Śaktimat. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...the other day that this Swaminarayan, not Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Because tomorrow we'll say Prabhupāda. That is we are teaching, but he died very early. He died at the age of forty-eight years.
Prabhupāda: That means that his followers are not well-conversant.
Indian man (3): Those who are not following it properly, and they are not [indistinct].
Dr. Patel: But then he was actually living. What type of...
Devotee: In England also they are chanting "Swaminarayan," not about Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Indian man (3): No, they are also kṛṣṇa-bhaktas.
Devotee: How they are they chanting Swaminarayan's?
Indian man (3): They actually work for the Kṛṣṇa only, and they...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa recommends, śāstra, harer nāma, harer nāma, harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. So why they should chant "Swaminarayan"?
Dr. Patel: No, listen...
Devotee: He says to chant "Kṛṣṇa." But they are chanting "Swaminarayan."
Prabhupāda: You know, there was a big doctor in Calcutta, Nalini Ranjan Sen. You have heard his name?
Dr. Patel: Yes. Sen.
Prabhupāda: He will die of thirstiness, still would not drink outside water. Would come home, offer to the Deity, and then drink. I know that Nalini Ranjan Sen.
Dr. Patel: But he is such a...
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]---Kṛṣṇa. But why one should chant the other name? Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not any other name.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: But their teacher, they're chanting "Swaminarayan." They're saying Swaminarayan is greater than Kṛṣṇa. What kind of preaching is this?
Dr. Patel: This is... [break]
Prabhupāda: [Bengali]. The people will go to the temple. If they say..., if the preacher say that Swaminarayan nāma should be chanted...
Dr. Patel: This is directly against Swaminarayan.
Prabhupāda: And "Swaminarayan is better than Kṛṣṇa," then what they learn?
Dr. Patel: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: In London they have got a branch, and they're chanting...
Dr. Patel: They are all wonderful branches, they're [Hindi].
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Swaminarayan. That is my objection. Why they are putting...
Indian man (2): "Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan." [laughs][break].
Prabhupāda: ...thing. "Swaminarayan." Nārāyaṇa is there.
Indian man (4): Nārāyaṇa is there.
Dr. Patel: Swami is their guru, and Nārāyaṇa is God, so both, Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: But that does not mean they should chant. Just like we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami..." No. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-tvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ. Guru is respected as good as Kṛṣṇa, but that does not mean I shall teach them, "No, you chant my name, 'Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami.' " What is this? We are teaching, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Harer nāma, harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21].
Indian man (3): Prabhupāda so much...
Prabhupāda: Because he, my disciple respects me as God, that does not mean I'll think I have become God.
Indians: [indistinct talking at once]
Prabhupāda: Hold some meeting, and you are belonging to the..., you asked them, "Why you say like this?"
Dr. Patel: We are... Here I represent them, and you represent...
Prabhupāda: No, they're preaching.
Dr. Patel: Both are Vaiṣṇavas...
Prabhupāda: Just like these boys said. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...all difference here, and they have got no difference at all.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: I would not say that...
Prabhupāda: I can understand that. That is not difficult.
Dr. Patel: Ah?
Prabhupāda: So only thing is that why they're preaching against their own principle?
Dr. Patel: Eka vasinam tapasa tapa ya brataḥ...[?]
Prabhupāda: That is my point. That is my point. Everything is there for Kṛṣṇa, but they're chanting "Swaminarayan." Why?
Dr. Patel: There are... In Swaminarayan's sampradāya there are...
Indian man (3): "[indistinct] ...you have to follow me." [Indians laugh]
Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, there is no different conclusion. The conclusion is there = kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is wanted. [break] ...do you follow?
Dr. Patel: That is the right. If you... You have the background of those people.
Prabhupāda: How can I. [break] They were saying they are sannyāsī... yes.
Indian man (2): They say like that, it is not...
Dr. Patel: Those were small boys. What will they know about it?
Prabhupāda: But why they are...
Indian man (3): Those boys are taught like this from...
Dr. Patel: Those days you must follow. There are two days coming.
Prabhupāda: No, rāmānandī, rāmānandī.
Dr. Patel: There's a difference. There are two diff... The ekadasi, some of the ekadasi.
Prabhupāda: They say that they follow... [break] ...impersonal.
Dr. Patel: Now, he has given about how..., what brāhmaṇas should do---all this.
Prabhupāda: Why recommended Pañca-upāsana?
Dr. Patel: I don't understand that.
Prabhupāda: That is the impersonalist.
Indian man (3): [indistinct] bhakti.
Dr. Patel: I don't know... Why...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no...
Dr. Patel: Pañcarātra...
Prabhupāda: Pañcopāsanam means that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. You can imagine as person like this. This is pañcopāsanam. Sādhu kanam hita taya brāhmaṇa rūpa kalpana. Kalpana. "You just imagine one form." But Vaiṣṇava, he's not like that. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ.
Dr. Patel: It says in the śāstra, veda ca rasa...
Prabhupāda: When the question of śāstra comes, shall I read Bhagavad-gītā or this?
Dr. Patel: All these things to be read together, because they are complementary to each other. Everybody needs to...
Prabhupāda: We have no time to read the complementary...
Dr. Patel: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: ...then what he'll read? Gita that's all.
Dr. Patel: Tathā śrīmad-bhagavad-gītā iti.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible that everyone has to read all the corollaries. The one, main... Bhagavad-gītā you read and learn, that I am stressing. That I am stressing.
Indian man (2): That's right.
Dr. Patel: Perfectly right, but what I say what he has... Finer points.
Prabhupāda: Now you say there are seven branches, and they're preaching in a different way. So how people will understand which is correct?
Dr. Patel: Because then those people were reading all so many śāstras, he narrowed to five. He wanted the Veda you must read, Vyāsa-sūtra... [break]
Prabhupāda: Beginning should be Bhagavad-gītā. [break] ...introducing Pañcopāsanam. Pañcopāsanam is not for the Vaiṣṇava.
Dr. Patel: Not pañcopāsa, Pañcarātra.
Prabhupāda: No, no, Pañc... Pañcarātra is all right. He has recommended the...
Indian man (3): Gaṇapati [indistinct].
Prabhupāda (4): Gaṇapati and others. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is not recommended. Mām ekam.
Indian man: Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupāda: So, why he has renounced?
Dr. Patel: Don't say this kind of thing---"It is not recommended."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Condemning and not recommending is a different thing. It is not condemned. It is not recommended.
Prabhupāda: Avidhi-pūrvakam means condemned. You are doing...
Dr. Patel: Sir, my point is this...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Avidhi-pūrvakam means... Vidhi-pūrva is right. And avidhi-pūrva is wrong. The same example, that one has to supply food to the mouth, and if one thinks, "There are so many holes, any hole will do," that is avidhi-pūrvakam. [break] ...recommended that suppose Gaṇapati worship.
Dr. Patel: He did not care much about. That, if you see...
Prabhupāda: No. Much or less, that doesn't mean. There is recommendation.
Dr. Patel: Recommendation or not, bhakti like Kṛṣṇa. You are not to do another...
Prabhupāda: What is that name? You read it again.
Indians: [indistinct all at once] Only Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam.
Dr. Patel: But you see, you have come to our narrow path now. [indistinct] wider. Because thoses days are differant when people were worshiping on stones...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I cannot... A chaste woman, you cannot be wider. She must stick to one husband.
Dr. Patel: No, in his time, people were Vaiṣṇavas...
Prabhupāda: You cannot... She cannot say, "I can accept as many husband as required." That is not good.
Indian man (2): Two hundred years before. Two hundred years before. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...hence they worship Durgā, then you have to sacrifice goat.
Dr. Patel: Ah?
Prabhupāda: As soon as you worship Durgā...
Dr. Patel: Durgā, no, no. There is no Durgā.
Prabhupāda: Whatever.
Dr. Patel: Gaṇapati, these three. Śiva, Gaṇapati... One family.
Prabhupāda: So as soon as you worship Durgā you have to follow the rules, you have to get goats agreement...
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata it is recommended. In the Bhāgavata it is recommended that when Kṛṣṇa was asking for Devī to go take birth... [indistinct comments by others] ...Devī was recommended to take birth in the womb of Yaśodā, Kṛṣṇa is inducing that "You'll get so many sacrifices." Yes. So that is the [indistinct], animal sacrifice.
Dr. Patel: Therefore [Sanskrit], ah? Vairāgyam neyem aprti śrī kṛṣṇa... [break] He is recommending the fools, who have got no...
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] and advised to the fools, why the Vedas cannot?
Dr. Patel: Vedas, they have advised to the fools to eat animal. But he has advised another fools not to eat it. You see?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you worship Devī, you have to sacrifice goat. Then what you will do?
Dr. Patel: No, no. [Sanskrit] Guru's come in here according to [indistinct] dharma.
Prabhupāda: Where this... [break] [kīrtana begins] [end]