Prabhupāda: Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much = by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food; and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions = one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: Are śūdras supposed to take sannyāsa also?
Prabhupāda: No. Why?
Prabhupāda: Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa. Only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas, they'll be allowed to take sannyāsa.
Bhagavān: Kṣatriyas used to take sannyāsa too?
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas... Some of them. Not all.
Gurudāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja?
Gurudāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home.
Gurudāsa: I see.
Prabhupāda: There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve---unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is...
Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?
Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras, in a varṇāśrama society?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in university education, the..., the number of graduates and postgraduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.
Devotee: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone's life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leave, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇa. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. [aside:] Jaya. One class of men fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all.
So in our Society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely, everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see? He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our Society should be managed. Not that "Give me second initiation, a sacred thread," and after getting it, business finished = "Now I'm liberated. Let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighās of land, and I have calculated in Māyāpur, setting aside twenty bighās for the temple and grazing ground for the cow, thirty bighās of land. The production should be three hundred maunds of grains. And three hundred maunds of grain, I have calculated... How much you can...?
Bhagavān: Fifteen hundred.
Prabhupāda: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 maunds. So there should be 120 maund excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he'll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddha [Bg. 6.17]. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varṇāśrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.
Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?
Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually, devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but he is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. [japa]
Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Nitāi: What should the kṣatriyas be taught?
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kṣatriya's business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." No. They must come forward = "Yes, we are prepared to fight." That is kṣatriya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our centers we are awarding brāhmaṇa initiation, second initiation...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaiṣṇava. A Vaiṣṇava and Viṣṇu... Just like Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, He's not human being, but He was acting like human being; similarly, Vaiṣṇava is transcendental, but for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brāhmaṇa, one should be acting like kṣatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyāsī who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaiṣṇava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach---like that. That should be there. It is not that "Because I have taken sannyāsa, therefore I cannot anymore do anything." If need be, he has to act as kṣatriya, or a śūdra. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Doesn't matter. But manage..., for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position of doing the work of a śūdra does not mean he has become śūdra. He's Vaiṣṇava. Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be..., but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly, to manage things in the material world we have to... Guṇa, karma. Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed, according to quality.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So in our movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly.
Prabhupāda: That is leadership. That is leadership. The..., which man is fitted for which work.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Utilization of all resources...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...including devotees and funds and everything.
Prabhupāda: Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? "Idle brain is devil's workshop." And the devil is kāminī-kāñcana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.
Prabhupāda: Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred rupees per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that "You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly"? What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince. That should be stopped. That is management. [break] ...especially is that the religion means to make a class of men simply idle... What is? Opiate? What is called?
Devotees: Opiate of the people.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the Communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, "They escape responsibility of worldly life, and they're indulging in some religious..." That is the tendency. All... Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, "These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis... That... Now in Bombay, they have refused, because they are under the impression that "their, these Europeans, have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use? They have taken some plea and rejected our..." [break] ...is there. As we are making counterpropaganda against māyā, the māyā is also very strong. She will also make propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become very sincere devotee, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14], then it will not be possible to conquer over māyā. You'll be succumbed. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
[break] ...taranti te. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. In India the, the brāhmaṇa class, they say, "Oh, I am born in brāhmaṇa family. Why shall I do this work?" You see? Therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still, they accept any kind of work. It doesn't matter. And here in India, if he happens to be a brāhmaṇa, he'll not take any kind of work. Means... Just like plowing. He'll not agree. Therefore so much land. The kṣatriya is thinking, "I am kṣatriya." The brāhmaṇa is thinking, "I am brāhmaṇa." And the land is lying fallow. There is no production. He will go to the office and fight with the pen as a kṣatriya. And instead of studying Vedas, he'll study the rules and regulation given by the office. But he'll not come to plow. Therefore this scarcity of food. He'll go to a mill to work as ordinary laborer. [Hindi] He'll not come. So much land we see lying unutilized. And they're crying for grain. Why? The same example. I was writing that in New York City, the whole city is full of dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaner, and you go to the Central Park, you'll find so many hippies are lying down idle.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Unemployment.
Prabhupāda: Not employment. They'll not work. That means mismanagement. Why they should remain down? Why they should remain without any employment? But the government is not doing that.
Viṣṇujana: They do not feel inspired.
Viṣṇujana: They do not feel inspired. No one has desire.
Prabhupāda: That, that means mismanagement. You had no desire to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you have been taken to it by some..., some way or other. That is management.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That is management.
Hṛdayānanda: You are expert manager.
Prabhupāda: A child does not want to go to school, but it is the duty of the parent to send him to the school by some way or other. So that is government's duty, that a man should be employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment. That is very dangerous position of the society. Now this unemployment question is very strong all over the world. They'll plan that "This government is not good. That system is not good. He's not good." And he'll do nothing. He'll personally do nothing. Just like the hippies, they criticize everyone, but he'll not do anything. It is all... These descriptions are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. [aside:] We are going too far? Employed...
[break] ...from the government to utilize this land. You see? So much. Even... Everywhere you'll find. Everywhere you'll find. Who was with me in London?
Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Last time, last summer?
Prabhupāda: Letchmore Heath.
Prabhupāda: So much lying vacant. They have taken it into consideration that "What is the use of working in the land? Better kill one animal and eat easily." Because he doesn't care for sinful activities. The... "If I can eat the cow, why shall I take so much trouble to till the...?" This is going on, all over the world.
Indian man: Employment means now just to cut the money and not to work. No work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] The same... Employment, even for the woman, the charkha [spinning wheel]. You see? Gandhi also studied this. There must be... Woman should be engaged for weaving. What is called?
Prabhupāda: Spinning, yes. Everyone should be engaged. That is management. So all GBC members must see that in every temple, everyone is engaged.
Brahmānanda: That is the meaning of leadership.
Prabhupāda: That is the meaning of leadership.
Hṛdayānanda: And that all the devotees are protected.
Hṛdayānanda: And all the devotees are protected.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone should be engaged. And if everyone is engaged, he'll never fall sick. Yes. [break] ...the farmers, their son, they're giving up the farming business.
Haṁsadūta: Going to the city.
Prabhupāda: Going to the city. In your country also?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Or you have nothing to do with farming.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Excuse me?
Prabhupāda: Your country, there is nothing to do with farming. You have got petrol.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. No, there is a lot of good land, but they're not developing it.
Haṁsadūta: Just selling petrol.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if they can get money underground, "Why shall I work?" [end]