Prabhupāda: So there are others coming? Eh? Where is Sañjaya? Class, not always everyone attends?
Devotee (1): It's usually everyone.
Devotee (1): Everyone.
Devotee (2): Gopāla Swami is the only one.
Devotee (2): Just Gopāla Swami is not here.
Prabhupāda: Not here? Why? Where he is?
Devotee (2): He's straightening your room.
Devotee (2): He's cleaning your room.
Prabhupāda: And our Paṇḍitajī swami? Where is he?
Devotee (3): Probably with him.
Devotee (3): I don't know where he is.
Prabhupāda: Call him.
Nitai: You were on verse 36, Chapter Sixteen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Go on. You can...
Nitai: [leads chanting of verse]
tayor evaṁ kathayatoḥ
parīkṣin nāma rājarṣiḥ
prāptaḥ prācīṁ sarasvatīm
[leads chanting of synonyms]
Translation: "While the earth and the personality of religion were thus engaged in conversation, the saintly king Mahārāja Parīkṣit reached the shore of the Sarasvatī River, which flowed towards the east."
Prabhupāda: So we are discussing the conversation between Mother Earth and Dharmarāja. The subject matter was that the earthly planet was very much morose on account of arrival of Kali-yuga. [baby fussing] [aside:] It will be disturbing.
Devotee (4): Disturbance? [mother and baby leave]
Prabhupāda: So we have discussed the symptoms of Kali-yuga, this age called Kali-yuga. As there are seasonal changes, similarly, in the duration of this material existence, there are seasonal changes. That everyone has got experience. There is summer, there is winter, there is fall, there is spring. So generally the seasonal changes are accepted as Satya-yuga, Tretā-yuga, Dvāpara-yuga and Kali-yuga. Just like in each year we have got different seasons, changes, similarly, each millennium there are so many changes of Kali-yuga, Dvāpara-yuga, Satya-yuga.
So Satya-yuga means the age of truthfulness. Satya means truthfulness. And Kali-yuga means the age of disagreement. The age of disagreement. So at the present moment we are in the Kali-yuga. Everyone disagrees with the other. Even the so-called disciple also disagrees with the spiritual master. This is the influence of Kali-yuga. One becomes disciple of a spiritual master, then he whimsically disagrees. So why, if you disagree, why should you accept somebody as spiritual master? That is not very good. That is the way of not being successful. We are chanting every day that yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. By satisfying the spiritual master, one can satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yasya prasādāt, "by the satisfaction of the spiritual master." Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam. One of the symptom is this, that spiritual master is so bona fide. Before accepting somebody as spiritual master you must know about his bona fides. That time is allowed. It is said in the śāstras that if you like to accept somebody as spiritual master, you should associate with him at least for one year, see how things are going on. If you follow, of course, others, that is also good. But personally it is advised that you just remain with the proposed spiritual master for at least one year, so that the spiritual master is also given chance to study you, whether you are acceptable. This is the process.
But when one leaves a spiritual master, the spiritual master, there may be some reason. That reason is also given in the śāstra:
guror apy avaliptasya
[Mahābhārata, Śānti 57.7]
Kāryākāryam. If the spiritual master does not know what is actually to be done, what is actually not to be done, and he acts against the rules and regulation of the śāstra, then such spiritual master may be given up. But so long you do not find the spiritual master is doing against the principles of śāstra or guru, then if you give up the company of spiritual master, that is not good for you. That is your downfall. First of all, you must take sufficient time to study the movements of a spiritual master. Spiritual master is one—the spiritual master. Because there may be many spiritual master, but if their business is one—to satisfy Kṛṣṇa—although they're many, they're one. Although they're many, they are still one. The principle is one: to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Such is the position of spiritual master, that yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ: ** if you try to please your spiritual master, then God, Kṛṣṇa, becomes pleased. That is natural.
So in the Kali-yuga why there should be... In Kali-yuga even with the spiritual master there is disagreement. That is due to influence of Kali. That is my point. So this influence of Kali-yuga has been discussed in so many pages in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Last it was discussed that the good qualification of Kali..., of human being... Human being, I am speaking, because amongst the living entities, human being is considered to be the highest. So the Mother Earth was lamenting that people have lost their good qualification. They cannot be lost, but it is, by the influence of Kali-yuga, it is now covered. Satyam, śaucam, dayā, that twenty-six nice qualification. We have discussed all these things. Here [reads]:
satyaṁ śaucaṁ dayā kṣāntis
tyāgaḥ santoṣa ārjavam
śamo damas tapaḥ sāmyaṁ
jñānaṁ viraktir aiśvaryaṁ
śauryaṁ tejo balaṁ smṛtiḥ
svātantryaṁ kauśalaṁ kāntir
dhairyaṁ mārdavam eva ca
So many. So on account of this Kali-yuga, the good qualification of human society will be lost. Thinking this future of the present age, Mother Earth was lamenting and talking with Dharmarāja. At that time Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, er, Mahārāja Parīkṣit arrived on that spot, and this is the verse.
Tayor evaṁ kathayatoḥ: while the Dharmarāja and the earthly planet was talking between themselves, pṛthivī... Pṛthivī. Tayor evaṁ kathayatoḥ, pṛthivī, the earthly planet and dharmayos tadā. Tadā: "that time," parīkṣit nāma rājarṣiḥ. Parīkṣit nāma rājarṣiḥ. There were many rājarṣis. Rājarṣi means although they're occupying the royal position... Rāja. Rāja and prajā. Rāja means king or the ruler. Here is also regulative principle. Why a king is accepted? Why a governor is accepted? Why a president is...? Even in this day of democracy—they have abolished the system of monarchy—but still, they select somebody to become a monarch, a king, or to occupy the post of the king. That is called president. Why? Because unless there is one head, or on the head of the government, who can actually control? Control means whether citizens are following, executing the rules and regulation, the law of the state. Therefore a certain man, qualified man, who is..., who enjoys the confidence of the people, he is accepted as the king. This is the position. So such president, king or the executive head must be a saintly person. Therefore here it is said, parīkṣit nāma rājarṣiḥ. Rājarṣi means those who are on the top of the government, he must be ṛṣi, saintly person. Just like this our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the head of the institution must be a saintly person. Otherwise how he can become a controller? Controller there must be. That what is the qualification of the controller? He must be a saintly person. He must know what is the principle of life, what is the value of life, why one should be controlled by somebody else. These things are required to become qualified.
So Mahārāja Parīkṣit, parīkṣit nāma rājarṣiḥ. In those days all the kings were like saintly persons. They are not ordinary person. Why saintly person required? Because saintly person means he knows what is actually good and what is not good. The actually good of human life is that he's engaged in developing devotional service. That is actually good. In another place of this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Paro dharmaḥ. Para means superior, transcendental, or which is para and apara. Bara and abara, these words are used. Bara means greater, and abara means lower, and para means superior and apara means inferior. Here it is spoken, "There are many types of religious system, but they are apara, not very good, inferior, inferior type." Religion cannot be inferior, but it is sometimes made into inferiority because without such kind inferior type of religion, the inferior class of men will not accept it, will not accept it.
Just like in religious system, in any religious system, the killing of animal there is. In every religious system, there is. But why there is this killing of a living entity? It is not good. But why in the religious system there is permission for killing animal? So that is explained. The explanation is that a person who is a staunch meat-eater, he cannot give up meat-eating, so... At the same time he wants to be religious. This is the position. So for such person it is enjoined, just like in Vedic system, "All right, if you want to eat meat, at the same time you want to become religious, then you worship Goddess Kālī. You cannot worship Viṣṇu." Because he's a meat-eater, he cannot approach pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. The Supreme Personality is the supreme pure. So this meat-eater is impure. He cannot approach the pure. That is not possible. Therefore he is advised to approach some agent of the pure, some śakti, or just like Goddess Kālī. Goddess Kālī is the śakti, or the agent, potency. Kālī has got also business: to cut the heads of the demons. You have seen the Goddess Kālī's picture, muṇḍa-mālā. She's garlanded with the heads of the demons. Have you seen? Any one of you?
Devotee (3): I have seen kālī-pūjā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But her business is to cut off the heads of the demons. She is carrying one head in this hand, and in this hand she's carrying a chopper, and her business is to cut the heads of the demons. But she's also the agent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. How she's agent? Because God has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. For them the Goddess Kālī is engaged to cut their heads, kill them. That is also Kṛṣṇa's agent. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, they have to be finished. But, by finishing them, they are also elevated. Finishing means finishing their sinful activities, finishing their sinful activ... Just like... It is very easy to understand. Just like a person who has committed murder, the state law is, "Finish him, otherwise he will commit another murder." If he's encouraged... Therefore, by finishing him, there are two purposes. One purpose is served that because he has done something very grievous sinful activity, by sacrificing his own life he becomes relieved from the sinful reaction. That is the law in the Manu-saṁhitā. I have not manufactured. The murderer is condemned to death just to save him from many following resultant action of sinful activities. If in this life he gives his life, "Life for life," then he's safe. In the next life, he takes his birth clean, not suffering any more on account of the sinful activities. This is the statement in Manu-saṁhitā. Another instruction is that if this murderer is killed, then he will be saved from committing again murder.
So the vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, when a demon is killed, then he's saved, the people are saved and everything is good. But people cannot understand that "Why God is killing the demons and giving protection to the devotees?" God is equal to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ [Bg. 9.29]. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am equal to everyone." If God is not equal to everyone, then how He can be God? He is God, who is equal. Na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ. So when God is killing somebody and God is patting something, er, somebody, that does not mean He has got two equal behavior for two persons. No. His behavior is the same: affection. But to kill this demon means to stop him from further sinful activities and get him..., give him release from the sinful activities he has done. Therefore it is His mercy. But one has to study very carefully. Because God is absolute, there is no difference between His activities killing the demon and giving protection to a devotee. He is giving protection to the demon also, by killing him. But one cannot understand.
So in this Kali-yuga, rājarṣi, this rājarṣi... Rājarṣi, he's saintly person. Now, we'll find this Parīkṣit Mahārāja, as soon as he'll find this one demon is trying to kill another cow, he immediately took his sword. If he's a ṛṣi, one may inquire that "If he's a saintly person, how is that he's going to kill another person?" So killing is not always bad. But it is not to be judged by you. It is to be judged by the same saintly person: where killing is required, where not killing is required. So that is the qualification of the kṣatriya. Kṣatriya means one who gives protection. Just like when there is attack in a country, the king or the president gives protection to the citizen by killing the enemies. So his business is to give protection to the citizen. So it may be sometimes by killing others he gives protection. We have discussed many times the violence and nonviolence. Non... These are contradictory terms, but when these two contradictory things are found in saintly persons, we must know they are all the same, absolute. And what to speak of when these actions are found in Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the absolute nature. Absolute..., to understand the absolute nature means two plus two equal to..., one plus one equal to one, and one minus one equal to one. This is absolute understanding. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Īśo Invocation]. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya. One is complete number, pūrṇam. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya. And if you take away complete one, still it is one. This is absolute understanding. It is not that one has been taken away from one; therefore it has become zero. No. That is material. That is relative.
So parīkṣin nāma rājarṣiḥ prāptaḥ prācīṁ sarasvatīm. In India, all the rivers, they're coming from the Himalaya, western side, and flowing toward the eastern side, going to the Bay of Bengal. So prācīm, flowing to the eastern side, Sarasvatī... This is also one of the famous rivers. There are many rivers in India. Especially there is sacred rivers—Ganges, Yamunā, Sarasvatī, Godāvarī, Kāverī, Kṛṣṇā, Narmadā, like that. Each river is considered very sacred. So it is understood that Parīkṣit Mahārāja met the Dharmarāja and the earthly planet talking together on the bank of the river Sarasvatī.
That's all right. Thank you very much.
Devotees: [offer obeisances]
Prabhupāda: Any questions?
Devotee (1): Is Dharmarāja King Yudhiṣṭhira or [indistinct]?
Prabhupāda: That King Yudhiṣṭhira is the son of Dharmarāja. He is the son. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was begotten by Dharmarāja.
Devotee (1): Vidura was also the...
Prabhupāda: No, Vidura was begotten by Vyāsadeva.
Devotee (1): He was also Dharmarāja?
Prabhupāda: No, he was not Dharmarāja. Oh, yes, yes, you are right. He was Dharmarāja.
Devotee (1): Yamarāja.
Prabhupāda: Yamarāja, yes. By the cursing of some great ṛṣi, he became a śūdra. Yes. I thought that you were asking whether Vidura was begotten by Dharmarāja. No. He's Dharmarāja. Any question? What is the name of that boy?
Devotee (1): Sañjaya.
Devotee (1): Sañjaya.
Devotee (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Who has given you this name?
Sañjaya: You have, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Sañjaya uvāca. [laughter] Sañjaya...
Sañjaya: Having heard your wondrous dialogue, Śrīla Prabhupāda, my hair is standing on end.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Sañjaya: Having heard your holy dialogue, Śrīla Prabhupāda, my hair is standing on end, like Sañjaya says in the Gītā.
Prabhupāda: What is that special...? Which portion?
Sañjaya: This is the last ślokas of Bhagavad-gītā, when the...
Devotee (1): He's relating the conversation to Dhṛtarāṣṭra, the final conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā, saying, "After hearing this holy dialogue, my hair is standing on end."
Devotee (1): In Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Hah, hah. You want to know about something, about that verse?
Sañjaya: No, I just stated that...
Sañjaya: ...after hearing your lecture, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Every instruction is like that. We should follow the instruction, and if you cannot understand, then consult the spiritual master. Not to give up this association of the spiritual master and interpret in your own way. That is rascaldom. Don't do that. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā,
tad viddhi praṇipātena
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
If there is any doubt in understanding the Vedic literature, then you try to understand from the person who knows it, tattva-darśī, who has seen actually the truth. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. One who has actually seen the truth. And how to approach him? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena: by surrendering, by giving service, and questioning. Question must be preceded and followed by..., preceded by surrender, and followed by service. In the middle, there may be question. Therefore, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ, we have to please the spiritual master by service and surrender, and then it will be very nice position. If the spiritual master sees that the disciple is a surrendered soul, and he's rendering service to his best capacity, then the answer will be very liberal and convincing, and he will be very glad to answer the question, if it is supported by these two things: surrender, and paripraśnena, and sevayā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. The first beginning is praṇipāta. And what is this, that I give up the company of my spiritual master and I invent my own ways of life and own interpretation? That will not help. That will not...
Devotee (3): The war on the battlefield of Kurukṣetra, that lasted for a period of eighteen days?
Devotee (3): And that happened five thousand years ago when Kṛṣṇa was on earth. Is that happening now in some other material universe, the same battle?
Devotee (3): Can we enter into that, or see that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you go there.
Devotee (3): We have to... We leave the universe. But then we are associating directly with Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can associate with Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna every twenty-four hours, by reading Bhagavad-gītā. Why you require to go there? It is already here. You see. You read the Bhagavad-gītā, and you are immediately in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. He is instructing. That was the instruction. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted. You know that story? Illiterate brāhmaṇa was reading Bhagavad-gītā? So he did not know; he was not literate even. But because his spiritual master..., he had so staunch faith in the spiritual master... Just see. His spiritual master said that "You read, daily, eighteen chapters of Bhagavad-gītā." Spiritual master knew that he was illiterate, but still he asked him, "You read eighteen chapters daily." So what can he do? The spiritual master has ordered. So he was simply making a show of reading, "Uh-uh-uḥ," like this. So this other friends were criticizing, "Oh, Mr. Such-and-such, how you are reading Bhagavad-gītā?" He knows that this man... His friend is criticizing him, so he did not answer. But when Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, "My dear brāhmaṇa, what you are reading?" he knew that this gentleman, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, was really inquisitive, so he explained the whole thing, that "I am trying to read Bhagavad-gītā, but I am illiterate. My Guru Mahārāja ordered me to read; therefore I am reading. But actually I cannot read. So frankly I admit." This is staunch faith in spiritual master. He knew, his spiritual master knew that he is illiterate, and he knew also that "I cannot read Bhagavad-gītā." But still he was trying to read because his spiritual master has said. This is called staunch. Yasya prasādāt. "He has said. I have to satisfy him. I am incompetent—I cannot read—but he has said, therefore I must do it." This is called yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **.
So practical example... Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am insignificant human being; what can I do? But I tried my best because my spiritual master said that "You go and try to preach in English." So I tried my best, that's all. I had no qualification. So this is very nice point, yasya prasādāt. We have to try our best to... I may not be able to do that, but that endeavor will be appreciated by Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. That is required. I may be most incompetent. Everyone is incompetent. Who can satisfy Kṛṣṇa, this unlimited? But simply what Kṛṣṇa says, if we do, that will satisfy Him. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. The guidance is, the spiritual master, he orders that man-manāḥ, "Always think of Me," bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "just become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your obeisances unto Me." And here is the Deity. So that is our business. Think of always, "Here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, here is Jagannātha, here is Lord Caitanya." What is the difficulty? In the temple we get direct contact, and if I go out from the temple and lie down on the station, is that very good, do you think? [laughter] Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So will it help me to think of Him twenty-four hours by going to the railway station or in the temple? This is common sense. Any sensible man can understand that "Here is Kṛṣṇa, here is Rādhārāṇī. Worship is going on, the devotees are offering prasādam, always they are constantly engaged—that is man-manā bhaktaḥ." Or "I give up the association of the devotees and temple and go to hell, that will help me"? This is commonsense thing. I manufacture my own way by the advice of some, another rascal. This will not be good. This, this is very good, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. "Always think of Me." Here is the chance. As soon as I see... As I advance in my spiritual life, I'll see, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." It is not the doll Kṛṣṇa. Doll Kṛṣṇa is for the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. But one who is advanced, he sees Kṛṣṇa.
Just like you have read the story of, in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, two brāhmaṇas went to Vṛndāvana. So the devotee is seeing, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." When the older brāhmaṇa said that "I promise," the younger said, "Sir, you are talking before Kṛṣṇa like that. If you renege[?] from this promise, it will be great offense." Because he was seeing Kṛṣṇa. And when he was asked, "Who was your witness?" he said, "Kṛṣṇa is witness." And his eldest son took the opportunity, "All right, if your Kṛṣṇa comes and gives witness, then my sister will be married with you." Because he is atheist. He was thinking, "Kṛṣṇa is not coming. Kṛṣṇa is not coming. It is made of marble statue. How Kṛṣṇa will come?" So he thought that "I have given him some chance which he will never be fulfilled." But to fulfill the words of the devotee, Kṛṣṇa came. Therefore He is called Sākṣi-Gopāla, witness Gopāla. So we must have faith. We must have faith and discharge duties according to the śāstra, guru, sādhu, then our spiritual life is guaranteed. If we manufacture something out of whims, that will not help us. This is the point.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it's stated that the Supersoul is measured from the end of the thumb to the end of the ring finger. How does this change take place in the different sizes of species of living entities in this material creation?
Prabhupāda: He can become the smaller than the smallest, the higher than..., the bigger than the biggest. That is Kṛṣṇa's power. [bell rings as curtains open; devotees pay obeisances] So, we can go? [end]