Nitāi: Morning Walk, January 12th, 1974, Los Angeles. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...accepting a leader, one has to consider what is the position of the leader. They do not take such account. Now they calculate if the leader is very cunning, then he is qualified. They think that politics means cheating, cunning, bluffing. That is good qualification. Lloyd George, sometimes before he came, he said, "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." He must be inconsistent. And here, this is defense. Tasya vartamānasya [SB 1.16.17]. How he is situated. [break] ...as it was everywhere, especially in India, that if one is not God conscious, he is a third-class rascal. That standard is now gone. Now to become God conscious, to talk of God, is a business of primitive fools. They think like that. Is it not?
Prajāpati: Yes. They say they are realistic and we are not realistic.
Prabhupāda: Who is realistic? The rascals?
Prajāpati: They think that people who believe in God are not realistic.
Prabhupāda: Oh. And what is the realistic?
Satsvarūpa: To work in social reform or politics. To work with social reform or politics is realistic.
Prabhupāda: Reform means that continuously reform? Then where is perfection?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no standard.
Prabhupāda: No standard. [pause] What is the standard of reform, that they do not know. Wherefrom the swan came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the facilities are there...
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]
Prajāpati: ...from Rūpānuga Mahārāja stating that six devotees around the country now will be running for political offices, hopefully just to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness into... political arena.
Prabhupāda: He is one of them?
Prajāpati: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: He is also one of them?
Prajāpati: No, no. Not Rūpānuga Mahārāja. I am one of them in this area, here.
Prabhupāda: So which post you are going to contest?
Prajāpati: United States Congress.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Senator?
Prajāpati: Well, congressman. There's two offices of the legislature = the Senate and the House of Representatives. In the, er... For each state there are two senators, no matter what the population, and for the House of Representatives, every so many hundred thousand people, there is one representative.
Prabhupāda: That's like in England, House of Commons. And senator, House of Lords.
Prajāpati: That's right. [break] ...have been projected. One is that we preach very boldly and hold no bars, make it known completely what our platform is. The other attitude is one of making our propaganda more palatable by saying we will..., if elected we will reinstitute prayers into schools, and not tell them much more than that.
Prabhupāda: Why in the school? In every home.
Prajāpati: Well, it was a very big issue several years ago. They used to have a prayer at the beginning of each school day. But then one demoniac lady, one atheist, she, by her..., simply by her willpower got the Supreme Court to rule that unconstitutional. Now prayers are not allowed in schools anymore unless we make an amendment to the Constitution, "Yes, we can have a prayer in school." Then it would be allowed.
Prabhupāda: Even prayers are allowed, unless there is scientific knowledge of God, that will not help. The prayers still going on in the churches, but what improvement? They have become hackneyed. It requires training.
Prajāpati: Then our political campaign should be educating the people in general as much as possible in the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... It is taking chance to educate people.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We may not be successful at the beginning, but it is a good way of preaching, exposing to the general mass.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]
Nara-nārāyaṇa: As they elect the congressmen generally to solve different social problems which are existing in the society, so in our campaigning process, should we try to show them practical application of the philosophy for solving all their social problems, or should we preach philosophically?
Prabhupāda: No. We should preach that "Stop these things. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating." Practically you teach them. This is the real social problem.
Umāpati: Should we also try to introduce legislation immediately to close the slaughterhouses?
Prabhupāda: No. If you want good men, good leader, you must be free from all these, I mean, sinful activities. Otherwise there is no question of good leader or good man. There is no question. First principle is this. Just like a patient, he must abide by the prescription, that "You must do this, you must do not this." Then there is cure. And simply if he goes on in his own way, then there is no value of consulting a physician. So the first program... that "If you want really good leader, and if you want to become yourself also good, then you must give up these four sinful activities. Otherwise, all your scheme will be failure."
Umāpati: So we would tell the people that if we were elected we would try to close the slaughterhouses.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different thing. Why you should say, revolting something. You say that "Don't eat meat." That is slaughterhouse closing. If you say that "Close your slaughterhouse," they will think that these are..., what is called?
Prabhupāda: Ideal, radicalist, idealist. But if you can induce them... That is also another process.
Umāpati: To influence.
Prabhupāda: They agree, then automatically slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, "Don't cooperate with the British government." That was his... Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians---all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that "You non-cooperate, then the Britishers will automatically go away." That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that "You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?" This will be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that "They're against our real joyful life. So these men are useless." You have to explain that "If these things, sinful activities, you prolong, then you cannot become happy."
Umāpati: People will ask us, if we get into office, What are we going to do? What is the first thing we are going to do? What can we do? Since there are many, many other legislators and many other senators, they say, "You are only one man. How can you possibly change the country if we elect you?"
Prabhupāda: That I know. That I know, that I am... Therefore we are, internally, we are not after the office; we are after educating people. Yes. Even if you go to office, you cannot do it. Even if you give your manifesto, that you will stop slaughterhouse, and you are elected a senator, you cannot stop. Because they are majority there. If you say, they will laugh, "What this nonsense saying?" So even if you give any manifesto, you will not be able to carry out it, because their majority is there. Simply you can general way educate them. Or you can give what is there. There is no harm.
Umāpati: But there are many people in this country that would like to see prayer put back in schools. Even though they don't understand prayer, at least they like the idea. They are sentimentally attached to it. It was one idea that if we at least say that we would try to get prayer put back in schools...
Prabhupāda: But prayer... Without these things, background, there is no value of prayer.
Umāpati: Yet there are a lot of people who would vote for us on sentiment, at least, that at least we are for prayer in schools.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Prayer, to advise people to offer prayer, is not bad, but unless one is purified, that will not stay. But prayer, they are still going to church, but still, the churches are being closed.
Umāpati: Still, that could be influenced in the right direction afterward.
Prabhupāda: Well, influenced to a certain extent. But as soon as you say "prayer to God," they will laugh.
Umāpati: They what?
Prabhupāda: They will laugh = "What is this God and prayer?"
Umāpati: Well, some people won't. Some people are still..., they still have at least a sentimental attachment to God, and they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in school.
Prabhupāda: Do something practical. "Prayer means to chant the holy name of the Lord. If you have no holy name of the Lord, we are giving you. So you have no expenditure, neither you have any loss. So why don't you try this? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This will be reasonable. Is it not? And if they actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the prayer and everything will be done.
Umāpati: But they would not be allowed to do it in school.
Umāpati: They still would not be allowed to do it in school. There's a law against that, officially, in school.
Prabhupāda: That you can introduce.
Umāpati: We should try to fight that?
Prabhupāda: Now in the schools, now the senator have fixed up one date for prayer?
Umāpati: I'm sorry?
Prajāpati: One day, yes. For one day.
Prabhupāda: Some 30th or 31st April.
Prabhupāda: April. So if the government wants prayer, why they have prohibited in the schools? This is contradiction. Point out. "This law was introduced due to inexperience. Now they are coming to experience that it has not helped us; therefore they are introducing prayer. So why don't you take it?"
Umāpati: We should ride with that. We should try to get in on that.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that this without prayer, things have failed. That's a fact. You take this point.
Umāpati: Yes. The schools are falling apart. Delinquency, and there's lots of criminal activity amongst the children in school. And even the teachers are walking out of the classrooms because of the violence in the schools and the lack of communication with their students.
Prabhupāda: No, in India, in examination hall there is regularly police. Regularly. I have seen it. So what is the value of this education? There is regular police. Now there is no ordinary guard.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact some people get killed. During the examination hall, people get killed.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes people want to copy, and those people who are...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They catch them, and sometimes they get killed outside. Still in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There has been case. Yes.
Umāpati: In Calcutta that way too?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. I was in the examination hall, and in fact people are very afraid to be caught there. But now I heard that the government of India is going to change the system of examination, some paper.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they have introduced a grade system just like here in the United States, and then there will be open books, so that they will be nothing afraid of copying things. Open book examination.
Prabhupāda: Oh, common sense. [pause] [break] [airplane going overhead] ...man's aeroplane. Just see. Immediately he goes up. And man's aeroplane, oh, you have to takes position, you have to go so many miles like this. Then you can... It is imitation. The aeroplane has also wings, but his wings is collapsed. But that wing you have to keep. Therefore you require so much space.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a vulture. When the vulture wants to take off, he will run just like an aeroplane for some certain distance. They cannot just get up immediately. Vulture.
Prabhupāda: So you scientists, you are like vultures. [laughter] You have imitated vultures.
Umāpati: The symbol of the United States is an eagle, which is a bird of prey.
Prabhupāda: No, eagle... Our symbol is also Garuḍa, big eagle. Yes. Big eagle, Garuḍa. And you know Garuḍa is not vegetarian? You know that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not vegetarian. So if one becomes a sincere devotee like Garuḍa, you can allow him to become non-vegetarian---if he cannot give it up. [break]
Nara-nārāyaṇa: ...jīva-tattva? Garuḍa is from the jīva-tattva, or he is an expansion?
Prabhupāda: No, he is jīva-tattva. Nitya-siddha.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Does that mean that there is some soul who can come under influence of māyā in the spiritual sky and some soul who cannot?
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Does that mean that in the spiritual sky there is category of soul who cannot come under māyā and some category who can?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that potency is there always.
Umāpati: Is that the difference between jīva-tattva and viṣṇu-tattva?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore viṣṇu-tattva is called acyuta, infallible. [break]
Prajāpati: ...from politics to the world of theology. One of the most misunderstood passages in the Western scriptures, things that are..., most speculation about, is the beginning of the Book of John, where it is said, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." And that Greek word is logos. And so many people have said so many different things about that passage. No one really understands it. I was wondering if...
Prabhupāda: They cannot understand the Absolute. God and God's word are not different. Otherwise, why we are after Bhagavad-gītā? Because Bhagavad-gītā is the words of God, so as good as God.
Umāpati: It's absolute.
Prabhupāda: Absolute, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also say that. We say that the beginning, the sound vibration oṁ was there. Oṁ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śabdād anāvṛtti. In Vedānta-sūtra [4.4.22], śabdād anāvṛtti. Śabdāt, "by vibration."
Prajāpati: But it goes on to say, then, "Then the word then came down to earth and dwelt with man as Jesus Christ."
Prajāpati: The word dwelt with man. This was, er... They say Lord Jesus Christ was the word incarnate.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Umāpati: Incarnate means flesh, having come down in flesh.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prajāpati: From our Kṛṣṇa conscious standpoint, this means a person who is jagad-guru, who is fully living śāstra, and therefore nondifferent from the word of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Because he is following the words of God, therefore he is not different from the words of God. It is practical. Just like a lawyer is not different from the law; therefore he is called lawyer.
Prajāpati: But like you were mentioning this morning in class how they are cheaters. They simply say they are lawyers, but instead they are breaking the law.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nowadays, big lawyer means who can tactfully break the law. That is good lawyer. They will find out some flaw in the law and win the case. A man has committed murder---everyone knows---and if a lawyer can save him, then he is a good lawyer. How to nullify the law, he is a good lawyer.
Umāpati: We find that our administration and our government is composed of about fifty or sixty percent lawyers.
Prabhupāda: Like Nixon.
Umāpati: Yes. Pretty much so like Nixon was.
Prabhupāda: What is the position of Nixon now?
Umāpati: He's getting more popular.
Umāpati: Well, he couldn't get any less popular. So now nothing's happened. So he is the only one available. So he is getting more popular. People forget.
Prajāpati: They are all cheaters. So because he is a cheater, they feel he is one of them.
Umāpati: That's called representation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. People have become cheaters. Therefore their representative is also cheater. You can make vigorous propaganda that "This will not help without prayer, offering prayer to Lord. You shall stopped; it is not good. And prayer means you chant the name of God. So there is no loss on your part. If there is some gain, why don't you try it?" It will be very nice, beneficial.
Umāpati: They have nothing more to lose.
Prabhupāda: "But if you chant, you will be gainer. So... And what is the harm? You chant and see the result."
Umāpati: Of course, they must follow the four regulative principles, too.
Prabhupāda: You can advise. Even they do not follow, they will later on follow, by chanting. Yes.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: At our Sunday program, generally, the guests do not follow the four regulative principles, but when they come, they become very blissful.
Prabhupāda: But one thing = when you make your propaganda, you must have the facility for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Or you are simply going to speak? No chanting?
Prajāpati: No, we'll always have chanting. We will not speak without first chanting.
Umāpati: But still we have to talk to them. We still have to talk to them, though.
Prabhupāda: No, you can talk. But first of all chanting. And request them to join the chanting.
Umāpati: We will probably become known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Party, just like we became known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement. [pause] [break] [end]