Nitāi: January 9th, 1974, Los Angeles. Morning walk. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...origin of everything, animate or inanimate.
Prajāpati: Jaya. Your lecture this morning was brilliant, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your logic could defeat anybody. [Prabhupāda chuckles] The theological rascals, though, they will not accept any authority except their own mind. They are such nonsense.
Prabhupāda: That is called mano-dharmī. In Sanskrit it is called mano-dharmī, mental speculators.
Prajāpati: It's a disease, actually.
Prabhupāda: And therefore mental speculators, they have been condemned. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Because they carry on, or they are carried by, the chariot of mind, manorathena. Manorathena asata. Manoratha, when you drive on the chariot of mind, you cannot get any fixed idea, because mind is flickering. Saṅkalpa-vikalpa. Mind business is, "Accept this, and again reject it." So all these speculators are doing. Somebody is putting forward some theory, and after some years he will himself reject or somebody else will reject. So manorathena, by mental speculation, you remain on the material platform. You cannot get any spiritual idea. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Anyone who is not in the spiritual platform... Spiritual platform means to be a devotee of the Lord. The Māyāvādīs, because they are not devotees of the Lord, they are not on the spiritual platform. They are on the material platform. They are speculating spirit, "something negation of matter." That's all. That is mental speculation. "It is bad. Good means negation of bad." They are thinking like that. They do not know in this material world bad and good are both the same thing, because it is matter. That they do not know. They think, "This is bad, this is good." But they do not know, materially conceived anything, good or bad, they are the same thing. That they do not know.
dvaite bhadrābhadra-sakali samana
ei bhāla, ei manda---saba manodharma
[Cc. Antya 4.176]
ei bhāla, ei manda---saba manodharma
[Cc. Antya 4.176]
Dvaite means this external energy of Kṛṣṇa. There, everything is infected.
Bahulāśva: How is bad and good the same thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Bahulāśva: How is bad and good the same thing?
Prabhupāda: Just like we are walking on this street. Sometimes we say, "This is very good," and sometimes, "It is very bad." But the street is the same. So how it is good and bad? This is simply mental speculation.
Bahulāśva: Sense perception?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Mental speculation. When it is dry... The dryness also, sometimes it is, "Oh, it is very dry, bad." And again, say dry, we shall say, "Oh, today is very good." It is simply mental speculation.
Devotee: It is like wet stool and dry stool. It is still stool.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. [chuckles] Yes, that is the example. The dry part of the stool, they say, "Oh, this part is very nice." He forgets that, after all, it is a stool. So what is the dry or moist? Just like they are making scientific advancement, but the death is there. So what is the use of your advancement or no advancement? One who has not advanced in science, he'll also die. And you'll also die, advanced. Then what is the good? You cannot protect yourself from death. Then what is the meaning of this "good"? "This is good. This is advancement, and this is not advancement."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the distinction...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The distinction "good" and "bad..."
Prabhupāda: That is your distinction. You have made such distinction.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that depends on the consciousness of the individual.
Prabhupāda: Relativity, relativity. Law of Relativity. What is..., what is food for one is death for other, the same thing. So how you can say the food is good or bad? Is it not? "One man's food, another man's poison." So how you can distinguish this is food or poison? One man will say, "No, it is food." Another man will say, "It is poison." So how you'll distinguish? So this good and bad is simply mental speculation. Because it is in the material platform, there is nothing good. Everything is bad. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. In the name of dharma, so many rascaldom is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. It is not dharma. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2] = "This cheating type of religious system is rejected from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." All so-called religions, they're simply cheating. Cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Everything is cheating. They say, "We are advancing." What you are advancing? The problem, birth-death, is there. So what is the meaning of your advancement? Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām.
Prajāpati: This is the only means, then, to get off that manorathena.
Prabhupāda: Manorathena, yes. Manorathena means if you remain on that platform, then you have to reject again. Just they are doing, the so-called scientists, philosophers. They are putting forward some theory, and after some time they reject it. So if you remain on the mental platform, then this business of accepting and rejecting will go on. You'll never come to a conclusion. Therefore one has to rise to the spiritual platform. That is nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. That is eternal, everlasting.
Prajāpati: Not a theory.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes.
Umāpati: They just constantly speculate on the material nature.
Umāpati: They speculate on the material nature.
Umāpati: And they can never be spiritual.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Umāpati: Just always material.
Prabhupāda: Number of zeroes never make one. It is zero. You add thousands of zeroes, one after another, the value will be zero, not one.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there is a theory, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Not theory; it's a fact, that if some number is raised to the power zero, that becomes one. In mathematics.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But I am speaking that you combine millions of zeroes, that will never become one. That I am speaking. Zero is zero. Zero plus zero equal to zero. Zero minus zero equal to zero. Zero multiplied zero, zero. Zero divided by zero, zero. That's all. Where you get...? And by the side of zero, if you bring one, eko brahma, immediately it will become ten. And add another zero, immediately hundred, ten times increased. That one must be there, one God. Then zero increases value. Similarly, this material world is zero, but if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is valuable. Then it is valuable.
Prajāpati: But that manorathena, that chariot of the mind, that is never valuable.
Prabhupāda: No, it has no value.
Prajāpati: The whole Western philoso...
Prabhupāda: Manorathena asato dhāvato bahiḥ. By mental speculation, you will remain on this asata, in this temporary field. Asat means "which will not exist." Anything in this material world you take, that will not exist. Anywhere man can say. The skyscraper building is constructed, but everyone knows that it will not exist. Some day it will fall down. Everyone knows. It will never exist. That is explained by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "If you think that by combination of matter, life has come, so life was not there before the combination. And this combination will dismantle. That life..., there will be no more life. So why this [indistinct] period you are lamenting? There is life." Because according to this theory---"A combination of matter makes life"---so before combination there was no life, and the combination dismantle, there is no life. So beginning and end no life. Why you are lamenting in the middle? Very good reasoning. Just see. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. Māyā-sukhāya, that illusory, illusory happiness. Māyā-sukhāya. And for that reason, they are making huge, gorgeous arrangement and working day and night, which will be zero. It has begun from zero and it will end into zero. In the middle they are busy. Just see. Therefore vimūḍhān.
Hanumān: In your books you say that the world is like a dream.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is dream.
Hanumān: How is it a dream?
Prabhupāda: Dream, just like last night you had some dream.
Prabhupāda: Well, it has no value. It is gone. And again this night, when you'll sleep, you'll forget all these things. You'll dream. You don't remember during night, when you are dreaming, that "I have got my house, I have got my wife, I have..." You all forget. So it is dream.
Hanumān: It is true or is not true?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is true? You forget at night. Do you remember when you sleep that you have got your wife and you are sleeping on bed? You have gone some three thousand miles away and seeing something else. Do you remember that you have got a place to reside?
Prabhupāda: So this is dream at night. And night dream, what you saw at night, that is now dream. So both of them dream. You are simply visitor. That's all. You are seeing this dream and that dream. You are..., you are fact, but what you are seeing, that is dream.
Hanumān: But I have the impression that "This is true, and my dream is not true." What is the difference?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything is untrue. How it is true? If it is true, why you forget at night? Why you forget if it is true? Do you remember at night?
Hanumān: No, I don't remember.
Prabhupāda: Then? How it is true? As you don't remember the dreams which you saw last night..., that, therefore we say "dream." Similarly this thing, because you forget at night, this is also dream.
Hanumān: But I have...
Prabhupāda: This is day dream, that is night dream. That's all.
Bahulāśva: Jaya. Day dream and night dream. And the night dream, then you perceive that as being real.
Bahulāśva: When you dream at night, then you think that is real.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real. You cry... It is dream, but you are crying, "There is tiger, tiger, tiger!" Where is tiger? But you are seeing it is fact, tiger = "I am being killed by a tiger." But where is tiger? [break] ...in dream you are embracing some beautiful girl. Where is that beautiful girl? But actually this is happening.
Hanumān: Is it happening?
Prabhupāda: It is happening, because there is discharge of semina, night pollution. But where is that girl? Is it not dream? So similarly, this is also. You are having the effect of truthfulness, but it is a dream. Māyā... Therefore it is called māyā-sukhāya. The same thing, that at night you are dreaming you are embracing nice, beautiful girl, and there is no such thing, similarly, in the daytime also, whatever advancement you are making, this is also like that. Māyā-sukhāya. We are happy, we are dreaming, "This process will make me happy. This process will make me happy." But the whole process is dream only. You are taking this day dream as reality because the duration is long. At night when you dream, the duration is for half an hour. And this is for twelve hours, or more than that. That is the difference. It is a twelve hours' dream, and that is half an hour dream. But actually, both of them are dream. And because it is twelve hours' dream, you are taking it as..., accepting it as real. That is called illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are making distinction between animal and ourself, but we're forgetting, we are forgetting the animal also will die and I will also die. So where is my advancement? Will you remain? You'll also die. So where is your advancement upon animal? That is stated in śāstra = āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānam etat paśubhir narāṇām [Hitopadeśa]. Business---eating, sleeping, sex life and defending---this is also animal's business. And you are also doing the same. How you are distinct from animal? You'll die. The animal will die. But if you say, "I'll die after one hundred years, and this ant will die after one hour," that does not mean that you are in reality. It is a question of time. Just like this huge universe, it will be all be destroyed. As your body will be destroyed, this will be destroyed, annihilation, dissolution. Nature's way, everything will be dissolved. So therefore it is dream. It is a long duration dream, that's all. Nothing else. But the advantage is that even in this dream you can realize the reality, God. That is the... So if you don't take advantage of this dream, then you are missing.
Hanumān: I am half asleep. So I am half asleep.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the... Therefore Vedas says, uttiṣṭhata: "Get up, get up, get up!" Jāgṛta: "Become awakened." Prāpya varaṁ nibodhata: "Now you have got the opportunity. Utilize it." This is Vedic injunction. Uttiṣṭhata jāgṛta prāpya varaṁ nibodhata. [Katha Upanisad 1.3.14] This is Vedic in... Tamasi mā jyotir gama [Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.3.28]. These are Vedic injunction. So we are preaching the same thing, that "Reality is here---Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain in this darkness. Come to this consciousness." That is our preaching. Tamasi mā jyotir gama. [break] ...experienced the sunshine, bright day, and this gloomy day. So when you are in darkness, we must have to admit, "There is light." Because darkness means absence of light. So as we are in the darkness of this material existence, there must be something life of light. That is spiritual world. That is reality. [break] ...ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "Oh, I don't belong to this dark..., darkness atmosphere. I belong to the light atmosphere." That is self-realization. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
This is brahma-bhūta stage. Just like this is a cakra. I am walking on this wheel, but I am thinking I am advancing. What is this advancement? It is already there. Just like they are advancing in science, and they must remain here. They are trying for so many years to go to the moon planet, and no result. [laughs] The same, same thing = "Now we are going to the moon planet," but coming again. That's all. Saṁsāra-cakra. Just like the dog. Dog is sometimes barking = "Gata-gata-gata-gata!" The master says, "Come on." Immediately come. He thinks that "I have got freedom. Let me jump over." You see? So you are thinking like that. We are under the māyā's clutches. "Come on, come on here." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. He's under the reins of prakṛti. You cannot go anywhere. [pause] [break]
Hanumān: ...simultaneously in the dream and not in the dream. So when...
Prabhupāda: That is reality, when you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is reality.
Hanumān: But I also see all this.
Prabhupāda: Eh? That is another thing. On the path of reality, you come.
Hanumān: On the path?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a process. When the process is complete, then you'll come to the reality. But that is the process. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. We cannot distinguish now reality and non-reality because the heart is unclean. So we have to cleanse, and then we come to the reality.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For that matter, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one comes to that stage, there is no difference between animate and inanimate. Is that true?
Prabhupāda: Highest stage?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Highest stage, everything animate.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So a stone... Even a stone has soul.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like this tree. You cut; it does not protest. The consciousness is not developed. That is the... But it has got life. You scientists, you do not believe that stone has also life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they say it's just matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say there's no life there.
Prabhupāda: No, there is life.
Nitāi: Every stone has life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, dead stone has no... But there are many mountains, they are increasing. You know, at Benares there is a stone? Tila-bandesvara.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That increases. If you go, see today, and go ten years after, you'll see---take the measurement---it has increased. But they will go...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will say that because of the position of the dust particles the size will increase. Even a small...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is clean. There is no... It is being washed even. Its name is Tila-bandesvara. So there is no uncleanliness. Still, the body increases. There is still, Tila-bandesvara. There is temple of Tila-bandesvara. People go to see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the consciousness is covered there.
Prabhupāda: Covered, yes. Dullness means consciousness is covered. You put a child in open air, he'll not feel much cold. You'll see practically. He'll not feel, because consciousness is not developed. Animal, they will not feel cold. But we feel.
Bahulāśva: But Prabhupāda, there are still such things as dead matter?
Prabhupāda: Not dead matter. The soul is there.
Bahulāśva: Suppose something, well, something like this shoe that I'm wearing...
Prabhupāda: It is now dead matter. But when you go the higher understanding, it is a composition of atoms. So we learn from Vedic śāstra that within the atom there is life. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]. There is, there. If within the atom there is life, then what to speak of anything else.
Bahulāśva: That's a jīvātmā?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Govinda is there.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa is there, then Kṛṣṇa is there with everything. Kṛṣṇa cannot be alone.
Bahulāśva: This is the real science, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is the real science.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vijñāna. Yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Jñānaṁ me parama-guhyaṁ yad vijñāna-samanvitam [SB 2.9.31]. Is it not? Jñānaṁ me... "My knowledge is very confidential and it is full of science." Jñānaṁ me parama-guhyaṁ yad vijñāna-samanvitam. And in the Bhagavad-gītā there is said that "Knowing this knowledge..." Yaj jñātvā neha bhūyo 'nyaj jñātavyam avaśiṣyate [Bg. 7.2]. In the Vedas it is said, yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti [Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.1.3]. So this is the way. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything will be known. [break] ...guhyaṁ pavitraṁ paramam idam. Eh? Bhagavad-gītā. Rāja-vidyā, the knowledge, the king of knowledge. [break]
Hanumān: Without your mercy, there's no way out of the dream of material life.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Yes. [pause] [break]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...water is tasteless, but Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste in water." Science says water is tasteless, no taste in water.
Prabhupāda: Science says.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But have you tasted that tasteless water? [laughter]
Gurukṛpā: If it is so tasteless, why is it quenching?
Karandhara: If someone gives you a glass of water and you drink it, you immediately know what it is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say the taste of water depends on the amount of chemicals contained in the water.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. So that is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa, the tastefulness. Tastefulness of water is Kṛṣṇa. Not the water.
Bahulāśva: People have such a clouded idea of what is God, Śrīla Prabhupāda. When you explain it, it's very real.
Yaśodānandana: Prabhupāda, the other day you mentioned that during the eating activities, during sex activity, there is increase of breathing.
Yaśodānandana: Now, when we do the kīrtana, there is much increase of breathing. So what is the difference?
Prabhupāda: The difference is that... [break] ...why your child is less conscious than yourself?
Yaśodānandana: Because he's not developed.
Prabhupāda: He's also living entity. Why he's foolish, and why you are intelligent? What is the answer?
Gurukṛpā: Because the consciousness is more developed.
Prabhupāda: Then develop... So you develop your consciousness. Then you will understand Kṛṣṇa.
Gurukṛpā: So I must be more fortunate than the other living entities in my body.
Gurukṛpā: The other living entities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is called, human life is so valuable. You are not cats and dogs. You have got the opportunity to understand God, Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: Only by your mercy Śrīla Prabhupāda. [chanting japa] [end]