Prabhupāda: Proper. Kanpur proper.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. We were originally from a village, but we're living in Kanpur now.
Prabhupāda: Kanpur. It's a big city.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Industrial city.
Krishna Tiwari: My name is Krishna Tiwari.
Prabhupāda: Tiwari.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh. In Kanpur I had an old friend---he was just like my father---Tiwari. Very rich man. They have got their temple.
Krishna Tiwari: Which place? I probably know it.
Prabhupāda: In Kanpur there is a big temple that belongs to the Tiwari family. It is famous temple. Many people go there to visit.
Krishna Tiwari: I haven't lived there too long. Lucknow, we came to Lucknow, and...
Prabhupāda: The temple is very old temple. So the proprietors of the temple are brāhmaṇas, Tiwari. So the eldest member, old Mr. Tiwari, was a very nice, great devotee. At home he had Deity, Rukmiṇī-Kṛṣṇa. He was worshiping at home Rukmiṇī-Kṛṣṇa, Dvārakā.
Śyāmasundara: Mr. Tiwari is a well-known scientist. Biolo... Biologist?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecular biology
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying at U.C...., University of California at Irvine.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know how famous, but... [laughs]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying biology and molecular biology. You were in University of Southern California before, right?
Krishna Tiwari: No, University of California to Los Angeles. UCLA.
Prabhupāda: So,
idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
[SB 1.5.22]
So biology... Biology means the scientist dealing in living entities?
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupāda: So I don't think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true.
Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9]. The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this?
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. [laughs] I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little.
Prabhupāda: That is real scientist.
Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the other hand... Of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both..., or all the people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious man. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two.
Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he [indistinct] better; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that.
Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body, and the body has got different parts---the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different---but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you may---you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be---their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ.
Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam [SB 1.5.22]. The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord = how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemist, physicist, engineer, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point..., angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20]. This is... This we can simply imagine = one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don't think any scientist can have any measuring instrument.
Krishna Tiwari: I think that can be measured.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: I think they can measure that.
Prabhupāda: Acha?
Krishna Tiwari: It can be measured.
Prabhupāda: It can be measured?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It can be measured; otherwise how it is said?
Krishna Tiwari: Very easily measured.
Prabhupāda: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there's no soul?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: Because they don't know how to look for it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, how they'll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure.
Śyāmasundara: They can't find it.
Prabhupāda: They cannot find it.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We..., I said, this is the measurement.
Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it...
Prabhupāda: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the śāstra.
Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then?
Prabhupāda: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there.
Krishna Tiwari: What is the measurement?
Prabhupāda: The one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's very easy to measure.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you find it?
Krishna Tiwari: But that's probably the reason. Nothing is there, just a number, because...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: This is just a number, because one-thousandth part of hair is just a big number that...
Prabhupāda: Not one thousandth. One ten-thousandth.
Krishna Tiwari: That doesn't matter. You can make it one millionth.
Prabhupāda: How's that?
Krishna Tiwari: It will be a measure of a distance, which is very easy. That cannot be a source.
Prabhupāda: So... No. That cannot be so easily... It is definitely said, jīvaḥ bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9]. Jīva means solo..., soul. Soul's measurement is given there in the śāstra.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, but what are the... This is the... I don't know. This is the measurement, one thousandth of a...
Prabhupāda: One ten-thousandth.
Krishna Tiwari: ...of a tip of hair?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is... I don't understand that, because that will be... At that time I think it was all right, because people thought nobody could measure one thousandth..., ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair.
Prabhupāda: I..., we don't say people could not measure. People could measure. People measured; therefore it is, the measurement is given there. It is not that people could not measure. People measured it, definitely, and then gave it = "This is the measure."
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, so what you are trying to say? What symbolically it means, very small. Is that what it means? Is that what it means?
Prabhupāda: Very small..., that small part is there in every body. The soul is there. Now they, without finding it, they say soul is nirākāra: there is no measurement. That is my point. I say there is ākāra, form.
Krishna Tiwari: There is a form of soul, according to you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they say there is no form. That is my point.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, they don't know, probably, at this moment. But I don't..., I..., we have a trouble, at least I have a trouble, in understanding whether anybody else knows about soul. According to you...
Prabhupāda: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the śāstra and we try to perceive, that's all. But there is something. That measurement very..., may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. But I mean, with due respect to śāstras, after all, in my opinion śāstras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have...
Prabhupāda: Not five thousand years.
Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand?
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: How... Well, this is a different game then.
Prabhupāda: No. We have got... Because this, if we take on the strength of śāstra, we understand that after the birth of Brahmā... Brahmā created this universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupāda: But, uh, Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: So now, at the present moment, we are in one day's..., Brahmā's one day we have passed only half.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. So one yuga is calculated to be forty-three lakhs of years. Now...
Krishna Tiwari: That is also 4.3 million years.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is 4.3 million.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and multiplied by 1000.
Krishna Tiwari: OK, we've got 4.3 billion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the duration of daytime, one daytime of Brahmā. And similarly calculate night, similarly you calculate, that is twenty-four hours, one day and night. Similarly, you calculate one month.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I understand that, Swāmījī, but, uh...
Prabhupāda: In this way he lives for one hundred years, according to these calculation.
Krishna Tiwari: I can understand that. But, see, we do know. We do know the age of the earth, and we know better than anybody else does.
Prabhupāda: How can you know?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we know. We know our own measurements, which are very reliable. Different people will come up with the same number, and we do not have to depend upon any, you know, roundabout answer.
Prabhupāda: No, we have to depend...
Krishna Tiwari: No, we don't.
Prabhupāda: ...because you theories changes every year.
Krishna Tiwari: No... Well it changes, [laughter] because it is very...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to depend.
Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change...
Prabhupāda: "Change is the law of nature," that's fine...
Krishna Tiwari: And therefore...
Prabhupāda: ...but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: That is true, but you...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "I know seventh year. I do not know what is going to happen ninth, eighth year."
Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not the point. Point is that..., point is how to..., how long this earth where we all live... Now we're talking about only this earth. How long this earth, we know, existed?
Prabhupāda: I'm not talking of the earth. I'm talking of the whole universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. Well, we'll talk about one object first, before we talk about universe next. [laughing]
Prabhupāda: That means you are not in the knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: No. But Swāmījī, you want to talk about something, you want to start from something which is easy to comprehend and go further. How is it...
Prabhupāda: Now, the whole universe is one unit.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with philosophy...
Prabhupāda: If you study my whole body, you cannot begin studying my nails.
Krishna Tiwari: But you have to study nails.
Prabhupāda: That we..., that will include.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair.
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere.
Prabhupāda: No. That is...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientific process.
Prabhupāda: Scientific process, you begin studying... Suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I..., can I have my some doubts?
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh...
Prabhupāda: That because you are studying my body, you begin studying from my hair?
Krishna Tiwari: Some place. Some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace.
Prabhupāda: You think that is, uh, scientific?
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study... If they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul.
Krishna Tiwari: But how we know about soul?
Prabhupāda: We know from the Vedic knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well somebody said there is a soul, but the question is, unless we all realize, and there is a way of...
Prabhupāda: We realize. Everyone realize. As soon as the soul goes away, your body is lump of matter.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, [laughs] this is just dead. I mean, I don't know whether soul went away or not. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You don't know, but I know.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's your belief.
Prabhupāda: No belief. I'm taking...
Krishna Tiwari: That's your belief.
Prabhupāda: I'm taking my...
Krishna Tiwari: It's my belief too that there's a soul, [laughing] but I, scientifically, I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Your, your, your belief is also based on some scientific data.
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. Beliefs can be anything. But I can believe he's out to kill me. He can believe I'm a bad man.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: Belief has no foundation.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily foundation.
Prabhupāda: Belief, belief is there. Fact is not belief. Fact is fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, fact has to be established.
Prabhupāda: Established? It is established. I say, I say that this is the distinction between dead man and living man.
Krishna Tiwari: Will that extend to animals also?
Prabhupāda: Anyone. Anyone.
Krishna Tiwari: According to our Hindu philosophy, I understand everything has a soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everything. Everybody has a soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that makes me doubtful, because if I go into my laboratory and I can create as many souls I like. I can breed animals, as many as them I like.
Prabhupāda: You cannot create. The souls are already there. You can find out...
Krishna Tiwari: Well I..., then I'm putting a lot of pressure on God. Every time I make lot of rats, I'm asking for rat souls.
Prabhupāda: Rat has soul, yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I know, but that's... Why, why then I can do it? When I can..., whenever I want them to be here, they will be here, not on the will of God. According to our concept of soul...
Śyāmasundara: If he's in a laboratory and he's breeding rats, he's making rats have sex life and have babies, then he is controlling the souls of those rats.
Prabhupāda: He is not controlling. He is controlling the body.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, so body has soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: So I'm controlling the souls.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: No? I'm making them come.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot, you can..., you cannot control the soul.
Krishna Tiwari: I understand that.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise... Otherwise, when the soul is gone from the body...
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: could replace one soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's true. I mean that, I, uh, if you go... But my point is that the rat has a soul, and if God has something to do with the soul, then I should have no control of it.
Prabhupāda: Apart from God. Apart... We're not going to God. Just like here...
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Let's talk about soul.
Prabhupāda: You are studying the hair. Your point is you're studying... Soul is the part of God, mamaivāṁśo [Bg. 15.7]. God says, "The soul is My part and parcel."
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he's a dead body.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You are biologist.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium.
Prabhupāda: [to Śyāmasundara] What is that?
Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How? How is this?
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How it comes?
Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And there's not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lot of variables.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Going back to your example about rats...
Krishna Tiwari: Uh-huh.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...if I give you... You say you are creating rats. I give you this plant, can you create a rat from it?
Krishna Tiwari: No. That is transformation of matter.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, that's..., that's what creation means. If I give you nothing, can you create rat from it?
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So all you're doing is playing with established laws of nature...
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: create rats.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you're not creating anything.
Krishna Tiwari: No. Not..., I'm not..., I'm perpetuating it.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not...
Krishna Tiwari: At my will.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, you have given..., you're given a will to perpetuate...
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi:, to change a few things.
Krishna Tiwari: Uh-huh.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A few things. You cannot perpetuate a rat out of that matter.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course not. Of course not. Nobody else can.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, and all you can do is study that established law of nature by perpetuation of rats.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah but, yeah but...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And that law of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying...
Krishna Tiwari: my, is under my control.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's not under your control.
Krishna Tiwari: I can change a rat.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That as much as you go along with that law of nature...
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. For example, we have found out the law of nature, yes. That is always the law of nature, and that is supreme. That I agree. But, but I can manipulate that law of nature as today, not me, with the help of all other scientists, which nobody else could do ever.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation is within that law of nature. Your manipulation fits within that law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course. Of course, I agree.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation, your intelligence...
Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot manipulate the law of nature. You are under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree.
Śyāmasundara: You can't bring a dead body back to life.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. But on other hand, on the other hand...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So let's go from there.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the limit.
Prabhupāda: Then why don't..., you cannot bring the dead body into life?
Krishna Tiwari: I don't think this is the point of argument, because I have, I have already, I have already agreed that the body...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is, this is the point, this is...
Krishna Tiwari: No, no, wait, listen, because the point is this. I agree that the living gets dead and no science can revive it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, what is your science?
Krishna Tiwari: Fine. But what I'm saying is that when the question of soul is something which is not at the moment visible to us or anybody. There is no indication that there is soul, because if there is soul in everything, I would imagine that that will not be controllable under laboratory conditions. If soul made us, then we should not be able to make differences amongst us.
If, if the soul was the prime force, and was an important force, then such differences of very magnified nature as exists between one species, between the same species, for example human beings, or between the rats, they will not be under the control of the human beings. One could make rats with white eyes, same rat can be bred and made with blue eyes. Or rat can be made white to black. Now these knowledge, this knowledge which man has achieved by studying the law of nature would never have arrived if we just believed in total something which has been said.
Śyāmasundara: What..., what good are blue-eyed rats?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is a different point. [laughter] What good is life? What good is anything? But that, that point is out of the question. Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not creating anything new.
Krishna Tiwari: I never said I did create anything new, but I changed those recognized things at will.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the laws of mutations.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, at will, at will, made by my own, which, which God...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. No. That will is not your own.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is not.
Krishna Tiwari: Sure it is.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is limited. You... Can you will to jump up, go to another star?
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. We don't know yet, that.
Prabhupāda: So you don't know so many things.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course. I agree that on the first place.
Prabhupāda: But we know.
Krishna Tiwari: No. That's the difference. [laughter] What we do not know, we are ready to agree that we don't know. The trouble comes when people know nothing and they say they do know.
Prabhupāda: No, we know. Now why..., how do you say no? We know.
Krishna Tiwari: No. This is your belief, and I'm not...
Prabhupāda: It is not belief.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can believe that too.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe too, but this is... Belief, as somebody's belief. Say I may believe so many things, as you do, as Swāmījī does, as everybody else does.
Prabhupāda: What is your explanation between dead body and living body?
Krishna Tiwari: As I said, you see, it's a very complex thing, and I would not say something that I know from which probably I don't know. What we can measure in a dead body is that we see many things, you know. Things, say organs, are not working...
Prabhupāda: Apart from the soul, how..., what is your explanation of this dead body?
Krishna Tiwari: We point that the organs get diseased, reactions do not take place as they do, and the nature of..., law of nature takes over. We are the great believers of law of nature, better than, often religious people. We believe law of nature more than anybody else does.
Śyāmasundara: But you think you can control the law of nature?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I think so. I think so. This, this is the great...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Beyond the law of nature or within the law?
Krishna Tiwari: Within the law of nature.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the law of nature. Therefore you can never control it.
Krishna Tiwari: Why not?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within it, you're controlling it within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, what is control there?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's what we are doing it. Nobody else has told us to do it. We found it out. Nobody told us.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That, that is within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Within it. I agree. We are all the subject of law of nature.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: We, we... Exactly. When you say "we," you are also within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course I am.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right. Let's go beyond this, and see what is beyond this, and that's what Swāmījī...
Krishna Tiwari: Beyond, nobody knows.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: He knows.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know.
Prabhupāda: No, beyond, therefore... No, no. Beyond... You see, as you say that you are within the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, I agree. We all of us are.
Prabhupāda: So, somebody must be above law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily.
Prabhupāda: No, must be. Otherwise there cannot be law.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, law or not, the ones which we need reading the books or administration, these are not those laws.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, just like...
Śyāmasundara: He means the word "law." What does it mean?
Prabhupāda: Just like, just like we are within the state law.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So there is somebody above the state laws; otherwise how the state laws is made?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know which..., somebody, in which sense we try to imagine it.
Prabhupāda: Why not imagine it? As soon as you say law, there must be a law-giver.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with that, but when you say law-giver, see, people get different concepts. For, for...
Prabhupāda: Why different concepts? Law-giver, just like...
Krishna Tiwari: For you, law-giver may be something; for me, law-giver may be something else.
Prabhupāda: No, law-giver is the same thing for you and me. Just like state laws comes from the government.
Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. This comes from people.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is an institution which is called government. It may be people.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, which is made by people.
Prabhupāda: But still, you, you are not controller of the state laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, in a way I am. In a way I am.
Prabhupāda: No. Anyway, that is a different thing. But you cannot violate the state laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, we can avoid them. If there is a bad law, you can change.
Prabhupāda: Then you'll be punished. The state laws give you law that you cannot drive your car on the left.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, quite right.
Prabhupāda: So if you violate, you become a criminal.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. Right.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are subordinate to the law, and the law is given by another, bigger person.
Krishna Tiwari: No bigger person. Now, now, these laws are made for...
Prabhupāda: How you say it is not bigger? Government is bigger than you.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no, no. That's misconception, whatsoever. As a matter of fact that's the opposite...
Prabhupāda: It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. You cannot say government is under you. You are under government.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I didn't say government was under me, but I said the laws are made for us...
Prabhupāda: Why don't you try to understand? The government has given the register.
Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. Government...
Prabhupāda: Why do you say nothing? Why do you say nothing? You, why do you say nothing? What kind of scientist you are, you say the government is nothing?
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: I do not know. You can say government is nothing in my room, but you'll say outside, you'll be arrested. [laughter]
Krishna Tiwari: No, I can say outside too, because government is nothing.
Prabhupāda: Why you say government is nothing?
Krishna Tiwari: Government is by people.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you still you cannot say nothing. You are controlled by it.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, controlled by it, by, by we, we agree with them, for our good or for what...
Prabhupāda: First of all you agree. First of all you agree...
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: ...that government gives law and you are under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't think I can agree with that.
Prabhupāda: That is your obstinacy.
Krishna Tiwari: No. It's not obstinacy at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You're under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I, I, I...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: Because they... You are assuming government is...
Prabhupāda: First of all you agree, agree this principle!
Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree?
Prabhupāda: What is this? [laughing] He says you are not under the government of law?
Krishna Tiwari: That is different material.
Prabhupāda: Why different matter? First of all you agree this!
Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Government is us. We govern ourselves.
Prabhupāda: You are. You are. You are ordered not to drive your car on the left = you must.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't. I don't want to.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Therefore you are under the laws of the government.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are under the laws of the... We are following the same laws. If you violate the laws, of course, just like Prabhupāda says, if you drive on the right side...
Krishna Tiwari: Well, in a minor sense it is true. But what I'm saying is that those laws came about because we decided it was good for us.
Prabhupāda: That is...
Krishna Tiwari: That's what I would say.
Śyāmasundara: That's another consideration. He merely wants to define the word "law." You're using the word "natural law." He wants to understand what does the concept mean, "law."
Devotee (1): This is an example. It's just an example.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree, but so long we understand that government is not somebody from up...
Śyāmasundara: In Russia it is.
Krishna Tiwari: In Russia it is, and I don't care for it.
Prabhupāda: That you don't care for it... The point is you are under nature's law. There must be somebody who is controlling nature's law.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. It could be.
Śyāmasundara: Unless you think that you have made some by your vote or something.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I never made that. No. That was the difference I was going to tell. If you'll give an example of a government, that is very different from the example of nature.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. No analogy is perfect. So it's more like the Russian government, let's say. Right?
Prabhupāda: That government, what does it mean, "government"? Government means also a person, like president.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Here in America, the government means President Nixon.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, okay, if you want to believe that.
Prabhupāda: Why not believe? It is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree with it at all. [laughing]
Prabhupāda: Why don't you agree? Then you are madman. You are a madman. [laughter]
Krishna Tiwari: [laughing] No, no. I don't agree with you, Swāmījī, at all.
Prabhupāda: No, no... Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree. Because I don't think..., I don't think that some..., it is the government.
Devotee (1): This is, this is, you know this is still going off the point. The point is still being made that you've already agreed with that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes.
Devotee (1): And that you did not take a hand in determining these laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree.
Devotee (1): He agrees that he's under the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: But I do not agree with some of your government orders.
Devotee (1): That's fine. We'll keep it...
Prabhupāda: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: All right...
Prabhupāda: And the laws of nature... [break]
Krishna Tiwari: From my opinion, something which I do know.
Prabhupāda: But we know, we know in this way, that Lord Kṛṣṇa says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10] = "Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working."
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know who, who, who, who said that...
Prabhupāda: You don't know; therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad-gītā. You do not know that. You learn it.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad-gītā. I am aware of it. I know what is said there.
Prabhupāda: Here it is said,
mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad vipari...
[Bg. 9.10]
You are coming from Indian brāhmaṇa family, you must know it.
Krishna Tiwari: I know it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I have also read it. I have Bhagavad-gītā with me, always reading...
Prabhupāda: So, yes, here is the controller of the, controller of the material nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. But who? The book... You see, the difference is philosophically. As far as the philosophy of the Bhagavad-gītā is concerned, fine. But when since we start talking about somebody controlling, and identifying somebody with somebody, I have troubles, as everybody else
Prabhupāda: Well, no, no trouble. First of all, we have accepted that we are under the control of laws of nature. That is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Now we say... Not we say; our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe. Me, I don't know about that.
Prabhupāda: You don't know. Why don't you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said.
Krishna Tiwari: I'm giving a scientific opinion, not my opinion. Scientists don't know.
Prabhupāda: That scientists, but that the scientists are fools.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know that or that.
Prabhupāda: Yes! They are fools.
Krishna Tiwari: [laughing] We..., I don't know. Maybe. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Maybe? Yes!
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. [laughing]
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes.
Prabhupāda: No, no problem. This is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does.
Prabhupāda: What?
Krishna Tiwari: See, when we do not..., we say we do not know, we are just being modest.
Śyāmasundara: But he knows.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know about that.
Śyāmasundara: But he's trying to tell if you'll listen.
Krishna Tiwari: I, I have heard about those things, but I just don't know about the, how to believe...
Prabhupāda: That means, that means you are unbeliever.
Krishna Tiwari: No, not at all.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. That you are unbeliever.
Krishna Tiwari: Not at all.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: If, if he doesn't know who He is, who is controlling?
Prabhupāda: Then he is...?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then he is admitting that there is a controller. You admit that there is a controller, but you don't know. You're telling us that you do not see Him and you do not know Him.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, you can say that. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You cannot make finalize...
Krishna Tiwari: My point is I don't know, and I'm not too sure you know it either. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: I know. I know, because we are getting from authority of Veda. We know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, Vedas are there, but Swāmījī...
Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are, you...
Krishna Tiwari: When I was in India, dying in smallpox, children were dying in smallpox, and we were going to all the knowledge of Veda people, and they were sending us to the temple, and we, we go and worship, and the people will die and, and they didn't tell us anything about some kind of injection which could protect it. And the scientist people who went and found out about nature, they found out something, and children are not dying anymore. They are not deformed. I don't know about that...
Prabhupāda: You have stopped the death of children?
Krishna Tiwari: We haven't stopped, but we sure don't see them blind because of smallpox.
Śyāmasundara: Because they're all in the hospitals.
Krishna Tiwari: Because of smallpox, we don't see them blinded.
Śyāmasundara: But they die.
Krishna Tiwari: Eventually everybody dies.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. [all speak at once]
Devotee: The thing that we're trying to get at is not the...
Prabhupāda: You don't know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You can save the child for the time being by some injection, but it is under the laws of nature, it will die. That's a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree.
Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, is also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is government, democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact.
Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law.
So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great ācāryas, great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting it, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta. Veda means knowledge.
It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta-sūtra. In small codes, the things are given there, the Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Me.
Krishna Tiwari: This is all imagination fine with me. I mean, this is all imagination and belief which is fine with me. I mean I have no objection...
Prabhupāda: No, what is the imagination? Not here, imagination. When you learn from a, a... Just like the law of gravitation, it is not imagination.
Krishna Tiwari: Well law of gravitation... Anything we know about gravity did not come from Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Not from Veda, but it comes from Mr. Newton.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, that what I was saying...
Prabhupāda: So therefore you take the laws of gravitation from Mr. Newton.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So there is an authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, Newton was wrong in many places, although nobody is authority. Things change. I don't...
Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept any authority.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I don't, because once you accept an authority, you are just blindly following something which may be right, which may be absolutely wrong. But you will never find it out whether it was right or wrong. So blind faith in authority is the most mistaken path a person can ever take.
Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. We don't say authority blind faith. Authority, that's not blind faith.
Krishna Tiwari: And just...
Prabhupāda: Now, just... Suppose, to know your father, the authority is your mother. The mother says, "Here is your father." You follow blindly.
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: No. It is a different thing.
Prabhupāda: Your mother may say wrong.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, this is, this kind of examples are very...
Prabhupāda: Why not this kind of example?
Krishna Tiwari: They're unreal.
Prabhupāda: Not unreal. The authority means you have to follow blindly. That is authority. That is my point.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no. You believe something. You, you...
Prabhupāda: Believe, because it is fact.
Krishna Tiwari: You, whenever you use word "follow," "authority," you are talking of subjugation.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes! Yes!
Krishna Tiwari: And subjugation is different than faith and belief.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Sub... We believe in the subjugation, because...
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I do not believe in subjugation.
Prabhupāda: That is your madness, because you know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no. No way, no way you can say that. [laughing]
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I am.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of "authority" words.
Prabhupāda: You believe. You believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another...
Krishna Tiwari: ...that's a part of the nature. Difference between...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: ...big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It's automatic; it's, it's just a chain. It's a growth into. It's a factor; it's no force.
Prabhupāda: That automatic means just like you become criminal.
Krishna Tiwari: That, that's the way progress, I'm a part of it. I'm not under or over anybody, and no one is over, under, or above me. You are not under me. You are not over me.
Śyāmasundara: You're under nature's law.
Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swāmījī, you, all of us are.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Exactly.
Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's up to you.
Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. Yes. That's what I'm saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a matter of your choice. Accepting...
Krishna Tiwari: It's a matter of personal choice.
Prabhupāda: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority?
Krishna Tiwari: I'm no, I'm no, I'm no subjugation to anyone. I'm a part of the nature.
Prabhupāda: How is that you're not...
Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old.
Prabhupāda: You have here subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: I am no... I'm a part of a... Nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static.
Prabhupāda: Nature is not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing.
Prabhupāda: Not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it's changing, and even Lord Kṛṣṇa says it changes.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: I think He does.
Prabhupāda: Nature is changing...
Krishna Tiwari: Ever changing. Ever-changing world is the theme of Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: There's always winter, there's always summer.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, and things have changed, much, much more than you have observed just by winter and spring, and the change, the change of the world, change of the nature is the Lord in Gītā philosophy itself. And I'm a great believer in Gītā philosophy, but I just don't buy subjugation or authority.
Śyāmasundara: Then how can you..., then you say, you say you can determine the age of the earth.
Krishna Tiwari: I have not determined. I mean, thousands of scientists have combined.
Śyāmasundara: You say you believe, you believe in some of the...
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe that number very well. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Then you believe in authority.
Krishna Tiwari: No, because I can make my own calculation using his things.
Śyāmasundara: But you said that earth changes so much.
Krishna Tiwari: It does. It's ever-changing.
Śyāmasundara: Then how can you measure it?
Krishna Tiwari: That you..., there are ways to do it. I mean, that, the what is earth today will not be tomorrow.
Śyāmasundara: Measurements are blunt.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, of course.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I, can I summarize to you what our position on authority is? What we're talking about is that simply you're saying we both agree that there is a very beautiful set-up here. It's not accidental set-up. [indistinct] intelligent laws of nature. We both agree that there must be something beyond it.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You agree. Now you don't know beyond that. You have not... You say "I don't have time," or somehow...
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have lot of time, just I can't find.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say.
Krishna Tiwari: No, that's, that's not... That's your words. That's not my words. My desire is to find more, much, much more than you can place this. [laughs]
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Fine. But about that person, you see, you can find and find and find. You've got an outlet. You can get his hair and analyze. Each hair you can see millions of atoms. You can count the atoms in each hair. You can go further and further and further. But if you don't know that is an elephant, that's...
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to know it is an elephant. You're right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we're talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, when...
Krishna Tiwari: I think we don't have that much difference of opinion.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...which we know, this is the only process to find a creator, because we are...
Krishna Tiwari: How you know that?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...His subordinate...
Krishna Tiwari: How you know that about?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are His subordinate. Now, and you will know, if you follow the process, you will know too.
Krishna Tiwari: How?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have to accept one by one. You have to accept first of all that He is the authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, how can you accept somebody's authority without knowing them?
Śyāmasundara: Like your mother. He gave the example.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I believed in her. That's all I said.
Prabhupāda: You believe.
Krishna Tiwari: If she says... If she says he's my father, I believe.
Śyāmasundara: You think she's trying to cheat you?
Krishna Tiwari: No, I'm not. That's why I believe her. The question of authority does not come.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you have to believe that there is an alternative beyond and above this law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Believe? I always said from the very beginning, beliefs are entirely different thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you have to understand where does this information come from. This doesn't come accidentally. It comes from the source of information. And this source of information we call the Vedas. It is not an accidental literature.
Prabhupāda: The Veda means knowledge.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Knowledge coming from, just like you were talking about.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And where is it coming from? It's coming, it's coming from the source.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't... I think we have a, just a matter of words. You said knowledge is coming from source. I think knowledge is coming from people.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: How could you know?
Śyāmasundara: Your knowledge is always changing, just like the carbon-14 test. You say... You might had said a few months back, "Yes, I believe the earth is this old," and now you have to say, "No, I believe now the earth is half that old." So your knowledge is constantly changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Because that's better and better.
Śyāmasundara: Better and better. Have you improved the world? Do you think you've made one improvement in the world?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has. We have made better than what others, everybody else combined, Christ and everybody else combined did, and Lord Kṛṣṇa included.
Śyāmasundara: How do you measure that improvement?
Prabhupāda: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. [laughter] Sir, first of all we must settle up this point, that we are all under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swāmījī, completely.
Prabhupāda: Just hear me. Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Which probably I have nothing to add to.
Prabhupāda: That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but my one...
Prabhupāda: Now, what is that person, that is another thing, but simply let us agree that we are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is also controlled by somebody.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, we can say that...
Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. Now, who is that person, or what is that substance which is controlling the law of nature, that is not yet known to the science.
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we, either you say "believe" or you know, we know.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's okay. Okay, because everybody is free to believe in it. But one cannot say.
Prabhupāda: That is the point. You don't believe that; we believe that.
Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not true. I didn't say that. I agreed with it. But I do not know who the person is...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: ...when I will have...
Prabhupāda: I don't say who, but you have to believe that there is a person and there is a superior authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Person, I don't think so. It's not from person. Not in my opinion.
Prabhupāda: Or not person; something, something superior to these laws of material nature. That you have to accept.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay.
Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior.
Krishna Tiwari: That's fine. I don't think we have any disagreement on that point.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us agree to that point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Let us agree to that point. Now what is that something, that remains, for the time being. I may say, "I know"; you may say, "I don't believe in it." That is a different thing. But there must be something above the laws of nature which is controlling. That is all.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree.
Prabhupāda: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is..., but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no...
Prabhupāda: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say, "Here is the controller."
Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one... Oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other.
Prabhupāda: No. We don't know by your process.
Krishna Tiwari: By any process.
Prabhupāda: That is your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference.
Krishna Tiwari: That's where my trouble is, and I...
Prabhupāda: No, no, your trouble must be there.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because you're godless.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your problem.
Krishna Tiwari: Not true. Not true.
Prabhupāda: That is your trouble.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no... Okay, go on saying like that. Fine. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are godless in this sense = because you are born in India, born in a brāhmaṇa family, and you do not believe Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh. I do not believe, but uh, I do believe that God is, but I do not understand whether the... [indistinct] God or not. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You do not understand, that is your godlessness. That is your godlessness, because...
Krishna Tiwari: No, that's not my godlessness at all. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: Yes...
Śyāmasundara: Please listen while he explains the process of how to know God.
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa means one who knows the Brahman. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa. So at least you are not a brāhmaṇa, because you do not know the Brahman.
Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in classes anyway.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: It's all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there, that is your defect. One has to become a brāhmaṇa. One has to. But you're deviated from brāhmaṇism.
Krishna Tiwari: I'm glad I did. [laughs] I'm really happy I did. I can assure you, Swāmī.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: If I meet God, I'll tell Him I'm glad I did. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: That's all right. The demons always say like that. [devotees laugh]. The demons say always like that. That is the fashion of the demons.
Krishna Tiwari: No, it's not true. [laughing] You know, Swāmījī, what I am telling you, it's not true, because I know I'm a brāhmaṇa's son.
Prabhupāda: You are.
Krishna Tiwari: I know a lot about...
Prabhupāda: You are.
Krishna Tiwari: A lot about reading Gītā myself...
Prabhupāda: You have become a demon.
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Prabhupāda: From brāhmaṇa you have become a demon.
Krishna Tiwari: I have not become demon, and God knows it. I am much more better man, right now...
Prabhupāda: Demons always know better than God.
Krishna Tiwari: Is that right? I don't know better than God. Oh, I never said that. What I'm saying is God knows I'm not a bad man. I'm not a demon. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: Demon's position is always to challenge God, that "I know better than You."
Krishna Tiwari: I never said that. [laughing]
Prabhupāda: That is demonism. That is demonism.
Krishna Tiwari: No, Swāmījī, you did not hear me.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I hear. I know.
Krishna Tiwari: I said that God knows I'm not a demon. I did not say I am better than God.
Śyāmasundara: Can we hear what he knows, what is his knowledge? What he thinks is his knowledge? What do you know...?
Krishna Tiwari: Can I say about my concept of God and philosophy?
Śyāmasundara: No, no, no, not that. That's speculation. Let's hear what you think...
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, it's better speculation than yours. [laughs]
Śyāmasundara: Let's hear what you know through your scientific... You say you only accept knowledge which is scientifically verifiable.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I never said that. I was giving you...
Prabhupāda: One thing is, that he has accepted that there is a controller of the nature. Now, what is that controller you do not know.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So we know. That is the difference. You believe me or not, that is another thing.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. All right.
Prabhupāda: I say that controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now you may disagree with me. But I have got evidence from the śāstra that Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all brāhmaṇas in India.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I accept Him too.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that He is the supreme controller. I have got that authority---Rāmānujācārya, he is a brāhmaṇa; Madhvācārya, he is a brāhmaṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is a brāhmaṇa. They're born in brāhmaṇa family. Śaṅkarācārya, he was a brāhmaṇa.
Krishna Tiwari: I know all of them.
Prabhupāda: So all of them have agreed. So in my background, we have got so many authorities, but when you say, you have no background. That is the difference between you and me.
Krishna Tiwari: Swāmījī, our śāstra also say that "You seek and you'll find." And, and, and "The person who seeketh himself..."
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: "...will find, will have a better chance of finding Me."
Prabhupāda: No.
Śyāmasundara: Where is that said?
Prabhupāda: We don't agree to that. We don't agree.
Śyāmasundara: Where is that said?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'll show you many books where, where the philosophy has been...
Prabhupāda: Now we are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Can you say any quotation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, I do not follow them by quotation, by quotation.
Prabhupāda: Then don't say śāstra. Don't say "our śāstra." You don't believe in śāstra. You do not know śāstra. Therefore don't say "our śāstra." You'll say in your scientific point of views. Don't say your śāstra.
Śyāmasundara: Say what you have found through your scientific process. Tell us what knowledge is. Tell us what..., how things are working, then. What is the, what is the process of scientific...
Prabhupāda: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific...
Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know.
Śyāmasundara: So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We're saying that there's a process which is perfect, and it's a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you're saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he's satisfied, he's peaceful within, and we can understand that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to..., to understand themselves and what's around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method?
In other words, has this process helped you to be actually filled with knowledge and bliss, or has it simply sent you into more questioning and more doubt until you come to a point of what we were discussing the other day, the Heisenberg's theory of uncertainty? Ultimately you come to the theory of uncertainty. So we're saying, when you come to this point, then you may as well just relax and try to have a submissive attitude---or any scientist---and try to receive knowledge which is descending.
Prabhupāda: Another, another thing is, he says, he says that he does not know what is there beyond this material nature. But he's still satisfied with that imperfect knowledge.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right.
Śyāmasundara: That's right. You should not be satisfied with that imperfect knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Wait a minute.
Prabhupāda: To be satisfied with imperfect knowledge is the qualification of an animal.
Krishna Tiwari: Correct. But this was your words. It were not mine. I didn't say that I was satisfied. You presumed I was satisfied.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes, yes. You said that we know artificially; we don't know philosophy.
Krishna Tiwari: I never said that we're not trying to find out.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right, then, and you have tried, and you...
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we are still trying to... You have to try very hard to find out these things. My question is, when I say... Wait a minute, let me talk something. When I say I do not know, that does not necessarily mean that others know. And you are taking this real point. I am saying in my humbleness that I do not know, and you come up, "Well, I know that." Because I don't know, you are supposed to know. That's not true. I just say you don't know either. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: No, no, that... But you cannot say, also, because you do not know, others do not know. You cannot say.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I never said that. I don't..., I didn't say that.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You did. You just did.
Krishna Tiwari: No, but you'll come back and tell me that "I know." Then I cannot believe you that because I said I don't know, you have to know.
Prabhupāda: "I, I know" means I know from the authority, who knows.
Krishna Tiwari: How? Which authority is that?
Prabhupāda: That, I say, I present this, Vedas authority. You don't...
Krishna Tiwari: [indistinct] with those.
Prabhupāda: You do not believe in the Vedas, that is a different thing. But I am saying I know from the authority.
Krishna Tiwari: I have seen that. I have seen... I have lived in India.
Prabhupāda: That is my position.
Krishna Tiwari: I have lived in everywhere. If Vedas were all that great and we have followed Vedas for thousand of years...
Prabhupāda: No. You might have...
Krishna Tiwari: ...look what it has done to the country.
Prabhupāda: You might have faith...
Śyāmasundara: It is still there.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas are still...
Krishna Tiwari: In what situation?
Prabhupāda: It is not what situation. It is what situation for you. You do not believe.
Krishna Tiwari: After the crisis[?] is doing much better.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas, authorities, they have been accepted by all the ācāryas, by the, all the brāhmaṇas, all great personalities in India. That is our authority. Now, you don't believe in authority. That is you have become deviated from Vedas. That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, if you want to say that point.
Prabhupāda: That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion.
Prabhupāda: That we have got our authority. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion, because I look with eyes open; I make my own mind.
Prabhupāda: This opinion, it is your opinion. Because you are Indian, I am also Indian. I believe you don't believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Sure, I do not believe.
Prabhupāda: So it is your opinion.
Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in the strict following of every word...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one.
Śyāmasundara: You said once, in a court of law, if there are two points of view at the final judgment, it has to be judged by the results of which point of view. So if you, if you judge by the results of our process and his process which people are..., have attained to some kind of perfect understanding of themselves, some kind of satisfaction with life, you have to point to our process and say that ours gets the balance of favorable opinion, because in your process, no one has been made happy.
Krishna Tiwari: How does say that in your process anybody has been made happy?
Prabhupāda: Everyone who follows Vedic injunctions, they're happy.
Śyāmasundara: You ask me.
Krishna Tiwari: You ask me. I'm very happy.
Prabhupāda: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. [laughing] Again it's the same thing.
Prabhupāda: You said, you said... No. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal.
Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is.
Prabhupāda: Imperfect knowledge and happiness.
Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you're talking about. You cannot be perfect either.
Prabhupāda: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is...
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else...
Prabhupāda: That is... No. You have no such power. You have no such superpower.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have no such superpower, but...
Prabhupāda: You say that you do not know anything beyond this material laws of nature. That you do not know. Therefore you do not know what is that superpower, which is controlling. But I know the superpower.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's my question. I don't know whether you know that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference.
Śyāmasundara: So, you should not make up the conclusion that just because you don't know, that someone else also doesn't know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I agree with you completely, but my point of this is that this is the difference between religious and scientific approach of finding the superpower. When science finds...
Prabhupāda: This is not religious.
Krishna Tiwari: Whatever it is.
Prabhupāda: It is not faith.
Krishna Tiwari: Whatever.
Prabhupāda: It is fact. It is science.
Krishna Tiwari: Science. It is this kind of science then, because there is no way to prove it. When a person finds...
Prabhupāda: There is proof. There is proof.
Krishna Tiwari: ...anywhere in the world...
Prabhupāda: You don't say there is no proof.
Krishna Tiwari: science, you can do the same thing in your place.
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it?
Prabhupāda: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it?
Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge...
Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Śyāmasundara: No. The process is given. If, he, he...
Prabhupāda: Just... We, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either.
Prabhupāda: I, nobody... I say know, still you say nobody knows.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That's your belief, but I don't think you know that.
Prabhupāda: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief.
Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don't know.
Prabhupāda: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding?
Krishna Tiwari: [laughs] Because there is only one each of us can do.
Prabhupāda: That is [indistinct]. So if you give so much importance to your method of understanding, why don't you give importance to our method of understanding?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I haven't seen the results of...
Prabhupāda: Your method is imperfect. I have seen.
Krishna Tiwari: But others is more imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: Others is...
Prabhupāda: No, others are perfect.
Krishna Tiwari: Very imperfect, Swāmījī. Very imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No, very perfect. Very perfect.
Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I'm saying to... Well, that's what I'm saying.
Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection?
Krishna Tiwari: What?
Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection?
Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature... [break] [end]