Devotee: [introducing recording] The morning of April 29th, 1973, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, His Divine Grace, walk.
Prabhupāda: In India, what is going on as "Hindu dharma," it is a bogus thing. It has no meaning. Just like this Ramakrishna Mission, this Vivekananda, this Aurobindo, this Mahesh Yogi, so many others, all bogus. Anyone who is not going in terms of the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult or His teaching, he's a bogus. Anyone.
Not only in India; all over the world. At the present moment, the real, transcendental spiritual life means to follow the cult or instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Otherwise, everyone is bogus. They're simply wasting their time. They have no knowledge of spiritual life. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128].
[voices yelling in background]
What is that? What does he say?
Devotee: He's talking nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [japa] When preaching our movement we should take this attitude. We cannot make compromise with anyone. Kṛṣṇa..., Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya... Lord Caitanya's cult is to preach the instruction or talks about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128].
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa-prema?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. This is Caitanya's cult. Whomever you meet, you talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's..., that is the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is genuine spiritual movement. Or the human society's movement. Spiritual, cultural, religious, philosophical, scientific---everything, complete. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
So, do you admit these facts? From any angle of vision, if one does not accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, he is aimless, bogus. Unless you are convinced, how you can preach? But this is the fact. [japa]
While preaching, you must have your locus standi, what is your position. And you must be able to defend your position.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we ask so many questions to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we are asking questions, so that...
Prabhupāda: Yes. You ask, clarify it. Be strong in your position and then preach. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21].
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The literal meaning of sūtra is a condensed statement, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The literal meaning of sūtra...
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: a condensed statement?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is like the...
Prabhupāda: Syn..., synopsis. Synopsis. Just like in business there are codes, Bentley's codes. So to minimize the expenditure of telegraph, you give one word. From the other side, they will understand. There is code book. This code means that "Received your letter. The quotation is supplied," like that, so many things, one code. You know that? Business codes. There are some stock words. That stock words is simply by two, one word, the whole stock word comes. Sūtra means that. Just like a..., just like you missing something; as soon as you get one little code, you immediately remember = "Yes, yes, everything is there." That is called code, sūtra. Sūtra means thread.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Thread?
Prabhupāda: Thread. Thread sometimes missing. In some stock of thread, you are missing where it begins. So you have to find out. As soon as you find out, the whole thread is open. [japa]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it like in mathematics, in chemistry, like they call formula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like symbolic = CH, square root, like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like in chemistry, for example, the molecule of benzene. So you present it like just six lines, by a hexagon figure with a circle inside. They condense a lot of information.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a code, sūtra. But the chemical symbolic representation, that is understood by the specialist. But this sūtra can be understood by anyone. Just like athāto brahma jijñāsā. The meaning is, "Now this is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." So this is a question for everyone, any intelligent man. Here we are understanding everything relative. Relatively. Just like when I say "father," there must be one son...
[break] ...truth, there must be one truth. In this way, this is, this world is relative truth.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Duality?
Prabhupāda: Dual... No, relative. Relative truth. You don't understand relative? Relative means you cannot understand anything without the other. That is called relative. Suppose if I say "good man," I cannot understand a good man without having another man, bad man. This is called relative truth. Is it clear or not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How about the duality?
Prabhupāda: Duality, not so expressive. Relative = in relation to other. That is the exact. Why duality? There are so many.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Opposite. One opposite the other.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just the opposite. Yes. You cannot understand light without darkness. This is relative. Unless there is darkness, how you can say, "This is light"? So opposite. You can say opposite. Now this, this knowledge is there. Everyone knows. But where is that absolute where the bad and good, the black and white, everything coincide? That is absolute. Everything is there. That is not distinction. Everything is there. That is called absolute. Brahman. That means... Brahman means the biggest.
Now when you speak something big, so everything is included. Big means bad and good, everything is included. Otherwise, how it can, big? Big means... Just like if you, when you speak of Los Angeles, so there are so many things, bad and good, in Los Angeles, all included. Is it not? So Brahman means bṛhattva, being the largest. The largest means it contains everything. Just like the sky, we have got the idea. The sky means it, it, it contains everything universal.
This is the idea of greatest. So athāto brahma jijñāsā means we are now studying the relative truth. I'm studying black. You are studying white. He's studying another, another. In this way. Partial. But what is that biggest thing which includes everything? That is called brahma-jijñāsā, to inquire about that thing.
Just like you are studying chemistry. We are studying Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there is something which contains the chemistry, Kṛṣṇa consciousness and everything. That is called Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The animal life, the subject matter, a small animal, he's concerned where to eat, where to sleep, where to find my food, shelter. This is their business; no other business. They're not concerned with the biggest thing. But this human form of life is to inquire about the biggest. That includes everything.
So next code is, janmādyasya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. That biggest thing is the original source of everything, wherefrom everything has come. How to know that? Śāstra-yonitvāt [Brahma-sūtra 1.1.3]. You have to learn it from the Vedas. In this way, sūtras are given, one after another. What is the nature of that thing? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12]. In this way, all codes are there. And go on searching, one after another, you get full knowledge of the greatest, Absolute Truth. This is Vedānta. What is that ship?
Karandhara: Tanker.
Prabhupāda: Tanker. Carrying petrol.
Karandhara: Most likely. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like we are seeing this ocean. We find it a vast ocean. But this vast ocean is nothing but a drop of water in the universe. There are so many, thousands or millions of vast oceans in the sky. So therefore the sky becomes the biggest. Then again, if you try to find out what is the bigger than this universe, we get information that these universes are coming out from the nostrils of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kāla... [Bs. 5.48]. Just like with our breathing so many germs are coming out and going. To these all these universes are coming and going.
So long it is exhaling, the universes are coming out. And inhaling, all finished. Then He becomes the biggest. Then you search out wherefrom this biggest personality comes. Then you come to Saṅkarṣaṇa. If you come to Saṅkarṣaṇa, then you come to Nārāyaṇa. If you come to Nārāyaṇa, then you come to Baladeva. If you come to Baladeva, then you come Kṛṣṇa. And therefore Kṛṣṇa = the biggest.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cause of all causes.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cause of all causes.
Prabhupāda: All causes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, the two causes, are not very clear---the material and instrumental.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The two types of causes, the relative...
Prabhupāda: There is only one cause. Only one cause. But they are manifested in two = material and spiritual. Cause is one, but they are manifested in two = one is material, one is spiritual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the instrumental is the spiritual?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The instrumental cause...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Efficient cause, maybe. Which is actually acting.
Karandhara: Just like the material cause of the ocean is the rain.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Karandhara: Or the material cause of the rain is the ocean. The efficient cause, the spiritual, the original cause was Kṛṣṇa, because He created the material energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Karandhara: So the scientists research and observe the material cause, but they don't have any information of the efficient cause.
Prabhupāda: Therefore their knowledge is insufficient. And because they are very much proud of insufficient knowledge, therefore they are fools, mūḍhāḥ. One may become proud if there is complete knowledge. But he has no complete knowledge; still he's proud. Therefore he's a fool. What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He said yes or no?
Karandhara: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The greatest fool.
Prabhupāda: [laughs] Yes. He admits that "In future, we shall complete." That means insufficient knowledge. Still, they are proud. That is their foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are proud because they do not see the reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are fools. The same philosophy = The pot man is thinking of becoming a millionaires, top. By thinking so, he has become millionaire. So these fools are like that. Thinking that in future they will make all solution, they are presenting themselves as perfect scientists. That is their foolishness. Our proposition is, "First of all you prove that you have..., you are millionaires. Then talk of all this nonsense. You cannot prove, and still why you declare yourself as scientist?" Scientist means one who has got perfect knowledge. Is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is scientist. But you haven't got that. But why you...? You are punishable. Just like if somebody is not a bona fide medical practitioner, but he gives "Doctor," "M.D.," he's punishable. There are so many bogus. They are not detected. But if they are detected, they are punishable. If you say that "Yes, I am a student, I am not a scientist. I have no full knowledge," that is nice. You have no perfect knowledge; still you say, "There is no God." How is that? You have no perfect knowledge. How do you say there is no God. Eh? They say there is no God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if they admit they have no perfect knowledge, how they can say there is no God, or there is God? They cannot say.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very doubtful.
Prabhupāda: Doubtful---that means not perfect knowledge. So how they can say that there is no God? They can say, "Yes, there may be or may not be. We do not know." That is a gentleman. How they can say there is no God? And people are misled = "Oh, such-and-such scientist has said there is no God. Therefore there is no God." He does not know that he's a perfectly foolish. His statement has no value. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. Because he has posed himself as a very big man, people follow him blindly and they're misled.
Karandhara: Like the Russians...
Prabhupāda: Oh, they are set of fools.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not believe in God, the Russians?
Prabhupāda: No. They are all rascals. I have studied them in one week.
Karandhara: They struggle so hard, but they still cannot produce enough food.
Prabhupāda: They are simply set of rascals. All people are unhappy there. Unhappy. They cannot speak anything against the government, and they have got so many protests to lodge. So many. But they cannot speak. If you speak, immediately he's sent to the concentrated camp. Some... Nobody knows where he has gone. You see the Krushchev, such a big man. Nobody knows where he is. That is their policy. As soon as you are suspicious... Therefore Lelin... Lelin, Lelin...?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lenin...
Prabhupāda: Not Lenin. Stalin.
Karandhara: Stalin.
Prabhupāda: Stalin. He's estimated to be the greatest criminal in the world. As soon as he'll suspect you... You may be a great friend; next day you are finished. He'll ask his friend, "Now, here is poison and here is revolver. What do you want? If you want to die yourself, take this poison and die. Otherwise, you'll be shot." So what he will select? He will take poison. Finish. This was his business. As soon as little suspicion, he'll call him = "Now here is poison. Here is revolver. What do you want?" Yes.
Karandhara: Their scientists are very proud.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: The Russian scientists are very proud in their working, and they're atheistical. But still they're not able to produce enough food. Every year there's not enough food.
Prabhupāda: No. There's not enough food. Yes. I have experienced it. You cannot get food as you like. What government supplies, you have to accept. That's all. And that is rubbish, all rubbish. Generally, they supply meat. No fruit, no vegetable, no rice, no..., nothing. You cannot get. You simply eat meat. That's all. And milk is available. This is their arrangement. And in all store, lines. You have to ask. Even if you want to take meat only, you cannot go and immediately purchase. You have to wait for three hours, control. This is their position.
No bank. No motorcar. No taxicab. Simply... There are---simply symbolic. And people are poverty-stricken so much that one taxi driver, he was trying to cheat us. They have no sufficient money. So they saw us, that "Here is a foreigner, Indian and American. Let me cheat." This is their position. Just like India. India, being poverty-stricken, they also cheat. Of course, cheating is a disease. But especially those who are poverty-stricken, generally, they cheat, they steal. No character. And all women are engaged for sweeping---fat, fat women.
Karandhara: Now in Russia, the people are starting to become disillusioned.
Prabhupāda: I, I, I have traveling all over the world. My opinion is that materially, America is happy. And spiritually, some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness, because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness.
So in Russia, there is neither material nor spiritual. So they are unhappy in all respects. I asked Professor Kotovsky to call for a taxi. So he said, "Well, it is Moscow. Very difficult to get taxi." So he came down himself, he showed us the way = "Please go in this way, in this way, and you get your hotel." He's a big man. He knows that taxi will not be available. And there are few taxis only, show. I did not see any store very neat and clean, well decorated. Not a single. All old, with dust, as if antique shop---the antique shop, just like in your country. I was daily having my morning walk in the Red Square, the most dangerous square... [chuckles]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What square?
Prabhupāda: Red Square. Yes. I think you have got my picture.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Many visitors are waiting to see the tomb of Lelin [Lenin]. Yes. They were worshiping Lelin. As we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, they are worshiping Lelin. So I, I asked Professor Kotovsky, "Where is the difference in principle? You are also worshiping somebody. So you, you have not been able to stop worshiping. How you can be godless? You have made your God, that's all---somebody false God."
I did not say him also that "This is your false God," but I said that "You are worshiping Lelin. We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. Now where is the difference in philosophy? You have to worship somebody. Now it is my selection whether I shall worship Lelin or Kṛṣṇa. That is different thing. But the principle of worshiping is there in you and in me." He could not answer. What he'll answer? Everywhere it is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that, that also shows that the..., there is a superior person than man to worship.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. You have to worship somebody superior. Now it is up to you to select who is that superior. But the principle is there. Now so many political parties, they have selected one god. Somebody has selected Churchill. Somebody has selected Gandhi. Somebody has selected somebody, somebody. But they must have to select. Our proposition is, "If you are selecting somebody to worship, why not the perfect? Why you select the imperfect?" That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
You have to do it. You have to select somebody as your leader. You cannot do without it. So the answer is that if you are selecting somebody to worship, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad..., mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7] = "There is nobody superior than Me." Then why not go to the best person? Why should we go to the inferior?
Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they will choose someone.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they'll choose someone, someone very beautiful...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is none complete, except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro..., philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to..., if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail.
So this is our policy, that if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy. You cannot avoid submission. That is not possible. Who is there who does not submit to anyone? Find out anyone. If you, if a man has nobody to submit, he brings a dog and submits to him. The dog is passing stool; he's standing. He's submitted to the dog. The dog is passing urine; he's submitting, "Yes, sir, you pass your urine. I take care of you." This is the nature.
If you do not submit to God, then ultimately you have to submit to the dog. This is nature. You cannot avoid it. You have to submit. There is no other way. Because your position is like that. Without submitting to one, you cannot live. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is the philosophy given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately when death comes, we have to submit to...
Prabhupāda: Yes, one has to submit to death. Yes. What is the time now?
Karandhara: About ten to seven.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We lost an hour last night.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [end]