Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they'll say, that, some scientists, that that science deals with the matter, or the physical matter, and so they try to...
Prabhupāda: No, physical matter, wherefrom the physical matter comes? Unless you come to that point, you are not a scientist. Wherefrom the matter comes?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometime..., sometimes they try to relate science and the religion, some scientists, and they make a differentiation. They say religion...
Prabhupāda: No, religion... When you come to the real cause of everything, then you come to religion. Religion is the science of sciences. Because you are trying to find out the original cause, and as soon you come to the original cause, He is God, original cause. So as soon as you come to God, then there is religion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And that, that definition of differentiation is that they say religion deals with the value of life, the moral and ethics. And on the other hand...
Prabhupāda: Religion, religion is the source of moral and ethics. Because religion means to come to the perfectional point. So as soon as there is perfection, moral and ethics are already there. So-called moral ethics, that is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ [SB 5.18.12].
If one is not a devotee of the Lord, his morality has no value. That is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Mahad-guṇāḥ, high qualities, moral, ethics, they are high qualities. So Bhāgavata says that unless one is devotee of God, he cannot have high qualities. That is artificial.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So without God consciousness, there's no question of morality.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of morality. First of all, define what is morality. What is the definition of morality?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The value of life in its proper perspective.
Prabhupāda: Value of life, everyone has got his own value of life. A drunkard, he has got his value of life, that "When I drink, it is value." Is that morality?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the morality of the drunkard.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone has got his own morality. Then where is the standard morality?
Brahmānanda: Yeah. There must be a standard for everyone.
Prabhupāda: That is Ramakrishna Mission's morality = yata mata tata patha. Whatever you think, that is your way. Yata mata tata patha.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yata mata tata patha.
Prabhupāda: As many ways you think, that's all right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what they define morality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you make your own morality.
Brahmānanda: That's not standard, though.
Prabhupāda: No. These rascals do like that. So why don't you make your own law in the state?
Prabhupāda: Why do they not make their own law, that "I have got my own law. I don't care for state law." Will it be accepted?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll be caught.
Brahmānanda: Anyone who does that is either criminal or insane.
Prabhupāda: Yes, insane. All criminality is done when one is insane. That is the definition of the Vedas. Everyone is criminal when he's insane. Sane man never commits any criminality. Just like when a..., when a man commits murder, unless he becomes insane, he cannot commit murder.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So among the college students, among the college students it's very common that they say, "I don't care what is said," these people, students.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "I want to..., I want to follow my own aim and desire, my own morality." They say like that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why don't you do that in case of your relationship to the state? Suppose the state says, "You must drive to the right." Why don't you drive on the left? Why do you obey the state laws? What does he say? You do whatever you like.
Brahmānanda: That means there's someone more powerful than they are.
Brahmānanda: They have to obey.
Prabhupāda: Immediately he'll be kicked on his face. "You rascal, why you driving? Kick on your face." [laughter] And what he will say at that time? Can he say that "Yes, it is my law. I'll do this." Can he say like this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He cannot say like that.
Prabhupāda: Then, then what is this? The insanity. What you cannot do, if you say, "I can do it," then it is insanity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They just argue without any background.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just for argument...
Prabhupāda: That means the so-called education making them all rascals and fools. That's all. The education has no value. We therefore say that you close all these universities. You are simply producing rascals and fools. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Asses, mūḍhāḥ. Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we don't give any value to so-called education, advancement of knowledge. We don't give any value. Our only formula = harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no value. Immediately reject him. He has no value of his life.
We are advocating Kṛṣṇa consciousness not on sentiment = on the value of life---that these men are being carried away by whims without any value of life. Let us save them. That is our mission. Just like a, a foolish person is going in..., on the ocean. So it is argued, "Oh, why you are going that way? Where you are going? You are a madman." This is the duty.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, these rascals are going to hell, and we are trying to save them. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I read an article by Śrīla Prabhupāda about sometime in 1935 or '40, early in the Back to Godhead magazines. In the earlier copies, the Prabhupāda writes about the standard of morality in one article.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There everything is very nicely explained.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one time, standard of morality.
We have got very simple formulas from the statement of śāstras. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Haro, "In the Supreme Personality of Godhead," abhakta, "nondevotee, a person who is not a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead," kuto mahad-guṇāḥ, "where is his high qualities?" No.
No high qualities. In the Bhagavad-gītā also = na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So we see whether he has surrendered to God. Otherwise, he's a mūḍha, rascal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The first one is from Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is from Bhagavad-gītā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the first one.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Brahmānanda: Harāv abhakta...
yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
Manorathena. These rascals, they are simply speculating on the mental platform. That's all. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. They are entrapped by the external energy, by mental speculation. They have no value. All these scientists, philosophers, they're on the mental platform, speculating. I am certi... "I say this." You say, "No, I say this." You see? Who is correct?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is no judgment.
Prabhupāda: No, judgment... Therefore they're all madmen. You can speak in your own way; I'll speak in my own way. And another fool thinks that both of them are scientists. They do not agree; still he's scientist. Just see. Cheaters and the cheated. Somebody's cheating and somebody's becoming cheated. The whole society's the combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. I see both of them, you do not agree. Just like they have rejected religion because two religionists, they do not agree.
So why not these rascal scientist? They do not agree. Just see. They are so fool, but still they are after them. Their modern people they have rejected religion because they say that one religionist does not agree with another religionist. So there is no... Skepticism. So why not about the scientists? Just see.
Everywhere you will find contradiction. Therefore anyone... And we are find out this contradiction because we have little attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Others cannot find out. We are challenging scientist, philosopher, although we are teeny person, because we have little attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, who is detecting their follies? Nobody. The scientists' follies, the philosopher follies, their contradiction... A devotee can find out. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Unless one is highly enlightened, one cannot find out these defects, contradiction. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā.
We have got simple formulas in the śāstras. Simply on the basis of those formulas... Whole Vedic literature is like that. Just like Āyurveda, Āyurveda or astrology. Everything is like that. Āyurveda, the medicine, they have to learn only the beating of the pulse. If one becomes expert in which way the pulse beating is going on... They have got example. Just like some birds jump over like this; some bird goes like this.
So they have got example how the pulse is beating, jumping or easily going. So the symptoms, if one can study, he becomes physician, first class. Immediately. Because as soon as he can study the pulse, how it is beating, in which way---that is, that requires little experience---then immediately the formula is that if the pulse is beating in this way, then these symptoms will be there. And he will ask the patient...
Brahmānanda: Confirm the symptoms.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Confirm the symptoms. If he says, "Yes," then immediately diagnosis is there. And as soon as diagnosis is there, the medicine is there. Simple method. Similarly, astrologer, they will see the constellation of the stars, and then the formula is there = "If this star is now with this star, if that planet is with that planet, then this is the result." So this Āyurvedic astrologer and physician requires little clear brain. Otherwise, very nice. The research work is already there.
Just like we are. What is our research? Kṛṣṇa says, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20] = "There is another nature." We believe it. That's all. We have not gone to another nature. But Kṛṣṇa says, "There is another nature, spiritual nature." This is, this material nature, inferior nature, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4], apareyam, this is inferior. Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām [Bg. 7.5] = there is another, superior nature. What is that? The living force. Who will argue?
So we have got very easy method. And because we are receiving all this information from the most perfect, therefore our knowledge is perfect. That's all. And for all these rascals, śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8] = unnecessarily they're laboring. They cannot come to the right conclusion. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāh [SB 5.18.12]. Oh, what is the good quality? If you unnecessarily work without any result, then what is your qualification?
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, ass. The ass works without any profit. So these are asses. Without coming to the right conclusion, they're working hard, day and night, and spending lots of money. So mūḍhas.
Why the scientists are searching out protons, neutrons? To find out the original cause. So they could not find the original cause. They see the middle work only, how the proton is working, neutron is working, atom is working. But wherefrom this arrangement came, how they are working systematically, they do not know. So what is their science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like studying that shadow.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we know that there is a shadow. So there must be a real object.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is real object, there cannot be shadow. Now the sky is clouded. We cannot see above the cloud. Does it mean there is nothing? If somebody, "Oh, there is nothing except this[?]..."
Brahmānanda: All we have to do is fly up there, and it's bright as sun.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow we have to remove the covering.
We don't give any credit to any man if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our final conclusion. We can give credit so much, as you have got. Just like you are a driver. So I can give you the credit of a driver. But I cannot give you the credit of a high-court judge. So much, what you know, that much credit...
Prabhupāda: Yes. When in future you become high-court judge, then I shall give you credit. Why before you want to take credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one has to have a certain qualifications.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. The bird has got also certain qualification. What is that? You cannot jump over like that. Just see how it is doing, a small bird. He has got complete sense how to protect. He's doing his business. So everyone has got some qualification, by nature's gift. One bird can go seven miles away and he can see where is his food. You cannot see half a mile even. What is the value of your eyes in comparison to that bird? There are so many wonderful things done by the animals, without any scientific knowledge, so-called scientific knowledge.
So scientific knowledge for material comforts, that knowledge is there even in the birds and beasts, for material comforts. They know how to do it. Why these laboratories? There is no need of. Because if your knowledge is for these four things---eating, sleeping and mating---then what is the value of such knowledge? The bird will also die after eating, sleeping. You'll also die after eating, sleeping. Then where is the advancement of knowledge. You have not improved in any way than the birds and the beasts.
You cannot check death. The bird also cannot check death. Then where is the advancement? Simply the bird is finding out food by the beaks, and you eat on a table, chair. Therefore you are advanced? You are also eating, he's also eating. He's eating his own way. You are eating in his own way. Does it mean advancement? But when death comes, the bird will be also kicked out, you'll be also kicked out. Then where is your advancement?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Advancement in sensual sights.
Prabhupāda: But that is not advancement. That is wasting time. Suppose primitive man, he has got also sensual engagement. Does the primitive man has no sex life? He has got his woman. He has got sex life. The dog has got his sex life. The cat has got sex life. You have got sex life. And because you have your sex life nicely dressed, you are advanced? This is foolishness. We have to see the result.
Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca [Hitopadeśa 25]. These four things, eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, even you'll find in the birds and beasts. And you are, if you are engaged in these four things in so-called scientific way, then where is your advancement? When death will come, your science will not save you. As the bird will not be saved, you'll not be saved. Then where is your advancement?
You are going on the motorcar, say, twenty miles. One bird can fly fifty miles. Even he's more expert. I have seen in the ship, the skylark, they go equal speed. The ship is running on, twenty-five miles' speed or thirty miles; they're going. So where is your expertness? By nature it is expert. Just like these dogs, they are jumping with great force in the ocean and they'll come back; similarly you also go with your surf, and again come back. Where is the difference between this dog and you?
So you have to compare that where..., where is your advancement of knowledge? Advancement of knowledge means to mitigate, minimize miseries of life. That is called advancement of knowledge. But you... The real miseries of life is birth, death, old age and disease. You cannot do anything. So where is your advancement of knowledge? The scientists cannot stop death, cannot stop birth.
They are inventing so many chemical contraceptive method, but the statistic is population is increasing. Even they're unsuccessful in this account. The statistics is that every minute or second, three persons are increasing all over the world. Where is your contraceptive? You cannot check even birth. Birth, de... And Bhagavad-gītā says, "These are real problems = birth, death, old age and disease." So what you have done about these things, we have to see. Then we can accept that you are advanced.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't want to think about it.
Prabhupāda: Because they cannot do anything. Just like some foolish animal, when there is danger, they close the eyes.
Brahmānanda: The rabbit.
Prabhupāda: They think that "My danger is over, because I do not see anymore." Yes. So many animals, they die. Monkeys, rabbits, they die. When there is danger, they close the eyes. That's all. So similarly, these rascals, they cannot make any solution of these problem, therefore they set aside. They don't trouble. What is this advancement?
They are constructing big, big houses with a hope they'll live in this house comfortably. But any day we'll be kicked out = "Get out." What he can do? Why he's laboring so much? Suppose if you are constructing some house, if somebody says that you are going to die tomorrow, will you do it?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't do it.
Prabhupāda: No sane man will do it. But the death is sure. You are making very nice foundation, but you'll have to leave. You cannot remain there. That they do not know. Jawaharlal Nehru worked for... Gandhi worked for his country so much. Now where they are, nobody knows.
Prabhupāda: Jawaharlal Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi, they worked so hard for nation. Now he's dead and gone. Now where he is? Neither the nation knows, whether he has now... Some astrologer told that he has become a dog in Sweden.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has become a dog...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is possibility. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Change of body. So if... According to laws of nature, you have to change your body. You cannot dictate the laws of nature that "Give me this body. Give me again American body." That is not possible. When you are dead, you have to accept another body. It may be cat's body, dog's body. It doesn't matter. You cannot dictate nature that "Give me a body like this."
Brahmānanda: Just like when the magistrate gives you a sentence, you cannot say, "Oh, give me this sentence." No, you must accept...
Brahmānanda: ...what the punishment is.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Neither you can say the magistrate partial, the judge. Somebody, he gives, "Give him degree for one million dollar." Another = "Hang him." So the judge is not partial. He is getting his money. He's getting his punishment. He's simply making judgment. He's not [sic:] impartial. He's not enemy to anyone or friend to anyone. Similarly according to your work, you'll get punishment or reward by God. God is not im..., partial.
Brahmānanda: That's another argument they give, that when there's some calamity, then they say, "Oh..." Then they blame the Supreme...
Prabhupāda: And when there's profit, that is his credit. Then he'll say, "Oh, I have worked so hard. Now I have got this profit." And when there is calamity, "Oh, what can I do? It is God's desire."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we experience almost daily that we suffer so much. So we see almost daily that people are dying, get killed in the car accident...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...burned in houses...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...so many things. We experience almost daily.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, people tend to not think about...
Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā it is said duḥkhālayam. This is a place for suffering only. This material world is a place for suffering. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, duḥkhālayam... And that suffering, that also you, you cannot make any, what is called, compromise. "All right, it is suffering. I shall remain here." But that also you cannot. Some day nature will kick you out = "Get out." Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15].
Even if you accept this place of misery to be your permanent residence, that also you cannot have. You have to go out. Today or tomorrow or fifty years after, you have to go. That is the mistake. I am thinking, "Now I have got this American body," or this body, that body. "I am very happy." But how long you'll remain in this condition? Any moment you will be kicked out. This is laws of nature. Therefore my intelligence will, will be shown when you are trying for the real, eternal life. That is wanted.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these sufferings, also due to the desire of the individual soul.
Prabhupāda: That... The... Suffering is there. Suppose you are in the ocean. It is suffering, but if you have got a good ship, you may think that "I'm very well situated." That good ship also can sink at any moment. Suffering is always there. You cannot avoid the suffering, because you are in the ocean. Suppose you are in the air in a very nice plane. Does it mean you are secure? Any moment it can be...
There is dangers everywhere. Therefore this place is always dangerous. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58], always dangerous. So real intelligence means you have to find out where there is no danger. That is real... Where there is real happiness. In the material world we cannot have happiness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So without the proper guidance...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without the proper guidance...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything requires guidance. You are working in the laboratory under guidance. Similarly, everything requires guidance. Just like these small birds. First of all, they learn with the mother. The mother goes, and they go. The mother come back, they come back. So guidance. Nature's way = guidance. And when they become little habituated, then without mother they can do their business. That guidance is there everywhere.
[break] ...kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti [Bg. 8.15] = "Anyone who reaches Me, he does not come back to this material world full of miseries and temporary life." That means anyone who goes back to home, back to Godhead, there is no misery, there is no temporary life. It must be the opposite. Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām. That is highest perfection. Paramām. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām. Every..., all this scientific research is going on for perfection.
They say the world is imperfect. That's..., that is a fact. Imperfect. Imperfect means here you cannot get happiness and cannot live permanently. This is imperfection. That they do not know. That question they set aside. These problem... If you say to the scientist, "What you have done for the human society to live eternally in perfect happiness," what is their answer?
Brahmānanda: They do just the opposite. They accelerate the death and they create more problems.
Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that they are trying.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Therefore we kick on your face. [laughter] Therefore we have got the right to kick on your face. [laughter] Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have now some theories how to prolong life, how to live longer.
Prabhupāda: What is that? Even if you live longer, does it meant that eternal life? That is already there. I'll live for eighty years. Another lives for, say, sixty years. Another lives for hundred years. That is already there. The trees live for thousands of years. Does it mean it is life? A tree lives for... In your San Francisco there is a tree which is said seven thousand years. Does it mean it is life, to live for so long duration of life? Then the tree is better than you.
It is also living. Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty-two years. Lord Caitanya lived for forty-eight years. So what is the use of living for hundred years? Who is more famous than Śaṅkarācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu? So you live for a moment. But live worth. Then it is life. And living for seven thousand years standing like the tree, is that life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like the English proverb says, "One crowded hour of glorious life is worth a day without a name."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Kalpānta-sthāyino guṇāḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that if you have got qualities, then you live for millions of years. Millions of years. If you have got quality. And if you have no quality, then living for thousands of years like the tree, what is the use? Is that very glorious life, to stand up in a place like a tree for thousands of years? Actually they do not know what is the value of life. [break] ...how people are busy here. And we see how people are wasting time. This is the vision.
Brahmānanda: They say progress.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Progress towards death. That's all. That the animal has got also. They're also progressing. The frog, ka-kara-kanh, ka-kara-kanh, progress. The progress is that the snake is coming nearer, kāla-sarpa.
Not a single instance of these birds being overpowered by the waves. They're so expert = not touching the water, although walking with big, big waves. Wherefrom he got this knowledge? You can study. You stand. Not a single instance you'll find that it is overpowered by the waves. Immediately comes. Spontaneous.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa within is directing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's directing you also. But these..., how this direction takes place? According to your desire. If you want to be cheated, Kṛṣṇa will direct you how you become cheated.
Brahmānanda: From Him comes forgetfulness, as also remembrance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You don't want to understand Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa will give you such direction you'll never understand Kṛṣṇa, life after life. So Kṛṣṇa has got two kinds of direction, according to my desire = positive and negative.
Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. As..., as you want direction, Kṛṣṇa will give you direction.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Insects, flying insects...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Who is giving direction? Who is giving direction that "Some men are coming. Fly away"? They have got intelligence how to protect.
What is this tower?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tower?
Devotee: Possibly a Coast Guard tower.
Devotee: Possibly a Coast Guard tower.
Prabhupāda: Oh. [end]