Svarūpa Dāmodara: Morning walk September 19, Tuesday, 1972. Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] ...don't know how they are becoming entangled, by this continues change of material body. That is defect of the modern civilization. Kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. Kleśada. Any material body, that is... kleśada.
Kleśa means "pains." Da, da means "killing." Any material body, it doesn’t matter [indistinct], it is troublesome. They do not know. They try to get out of trouble, but the real trouble is covering him. He does not know. Just like the deer, they grow musk on their navel.
Śyāmasundara: They grow what?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, musk. Serum.
Prabhupāda: By the smell, they become mad = "Where is that smell? Where is that smell? Where is that smell?" Mad. But he does not know that the smell is within his navel. Similarly these rascals, they are trying to make solution of the problem. But the rascal does not know that the problem is this material body.
Prabhupāda: They are trying to solve outside.
Prabhupāda: And they are passing as scientists and philosophers. Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. God is so kind that if you want any kind of material pleasure, He will give you a suitable body. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. Māya immediately orders a fully fit body. He wants to eat stool, "All right, here give him this body." He wants to drink fresh blood, "All right, give him this body." He wants to harm people without any offence, "All right, give it to him." Any kind of sense gratification.
There are varieties of bodies, 8,400,000 species of..., varieties of bodies, and is given chance = "All right, enjoy this." Want this car? "All right, take this car." So he does not know that this car is troublesome. He doesn’t know. He is trying to solve the problem otherwise. His real trouble is birth, death, old age and disease due to this body, and he is suffering continuously three kinds of miserable condition. But he does not know that "Due to this body I am suffering. So how to stop this acceptance of material body?" That is all. What do you say, Mr. Scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just to depend on the...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, just simply depend on the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, because other than that, there is no way.
Prabhupāda: Still they do not know that this body is the cause of all trouble. They do not know it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they miss Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is later on. But this very fact, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. They’re mad after sense gratification. They are doing all nonsense. Vikarma. Vikarma means prohibited action. If you constantly break the laws of the state, you will be, one after another, you will be liable for punishment.
But if an outlaw does not know this, and if he wants to be happy, how he can be happy? What is his reply, Śyāmasundara? He does not know. Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. You have tried many things in your past life to become happy, but because it was simply breaking law, you could not.
Śyāmasundara: You can’t beat the law.
Śyāmasundara: You can’t beat the law. There is no way you can escape the law. It’s always... Otherwise he gets justice. So many people tried...
Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That I am breaking the laws always.
Śyāmasundara: No criminal ever escapes free. He gets punished in the end.
Prabhupāda: Even he can escape the man-made laws without any fail, God [indistinct].
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When he has had so many sinful activities in the past life, that... we are...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Past or present.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Both. So we are entrapped in this material body.
Prabhupāda: Bodily encagement, and you are getting different types of body. He is thinking, "Now I am first-class thief."
Śyāmasundara: As soon as you begin breaking the law.... Most criminals, when they begin to break the law, they get puffed up, proud = they are doing something; they are getting away.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that he is making another type of [indistinct].
Śyāmasundara: And as soon as they get puffed up like that, automatically they give themselves up, away. Then they can be detected. They get careless.
Prabhupāda: These rascals do not know that for breaking ordinary laws, there are so many arrangements by the state = CID department, this department, this department, that department. And God has no department? They have taken God as fool number one, that they can do anything and everything, and God will not be able to check.
He does not know that God is residing within your heart. He is looking every second, every moment, for your activities, and it is being noted down. Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Upadṛṣṭā. Always seeing what you are doing, what you want = "All right, take it."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because of the..., also concept that...
Prabhupāda: They do not know. They do not know; that is a fact. But when you give them knowledge, they will not accept, that's their obstinate. This is foolishness. A man is ignorant, that is not fault. But when he is given the knowledge, he does not accept, he is rascal number one.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because he thinks that he is the controller.
Prabhupāda: Whatever he may think. But if he cannot accept this knowledge, then he is a rascal, a rogue. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Mūrkhāyo ’padeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. If he is described a rascal, he will be simply angry. He will not accept the instruction. This is their position. They are so fool, rascal, the standard knowledge they will not accept.
They are researching. What a fool can make research? After all, you are a fool. What research you can make? What is the value of your research? Here is this...Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. The Bhāgavatam is so nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
[out of car]
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam is describing all this nonsense as pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means "mad," "crazy." All of them, crazy. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. Their only business is to act subversively, not rightly. So what do you say, Karāndhara prabhu?
Prabhupāda: You are a great supporter of the materialists?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: [laughs]
Prabhupāda: Now what is your answer?
Karāndhara: They’ll say the body may be the only source of pain, but it is also the only source of pleasure, according to their...
Prabhupāda: That is not pleasure. You are creating another pain. That is the nonsense.
Karāndhara: But if they’re willing for every pleasure...
Prabhupāda: Just like a camel. Camel is drinking his own blood, and he is thinking, "I am enjoying." That pleasure is like that. Just like when you have sex enjoyment you are spoiling your blood, and you’re thinking, "I am enjoying."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because the camel does not understand...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...that blood is coming out from his own mouth.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore that is not pleasure. That is..., that proves that you are a camel.
Karāndhara: Say one or two...
Prabhupāda: You are eating thorns, and you are thinking that you’re enjoying.
Karāndhara: Some would say, "Well, if you thinking you’re enjoying, that’s all that counts."
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. That is not enjoyment. [laughter] Still he is thinking it is enjoyment.
Śyāmasundara: Just like these two people, they think they are enjoying on their..., riding their bicycles in the morning. But they’re getting old. They won’t be able to...
Prabhupāda: No, that is... That does not... [indistinct] This path is made very recently; it is cracked. [indistinct] It is new?
Śyāmasundara: They tried to pour concrete on sand.
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] This is going on. Especially in India.
Śyāmasundara: Bad asphalt.
Prabhupāda: Yes so many cracks.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One of the points is that it is not very uniform.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is not very homogenizedly mixed. That’s what makes it break.
Prabhupāda: That means neglectfully done. The contractor, he is a rogue. Or he does not know. Cheating.
Śyāmasundara: Everything in America is made to last only a few years now, and then replaced.
Prabhupāda: It is not few months even.
Prabhupāda: Everything has to be [indistinct] now.
Śyāmasundara: No one can think beyond about two or three years’ time.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everyone is rushing or something.
nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano ’yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano ’yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
The body sometimes becomes so painful that one commits suicide. The body is the source of pain, different types of pain. Therefore sometimes, when one cannot tolerate any more the painful condition of body, he commits suicide. That is the proof that this body is the source of pain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are people from Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco and in Niagara Falls, they do suicide, very, very often.
Prabhupāda: Oh, there are many places. In Calcutta there is a lake, that Baligon’s[?] Lake.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Baligon’s[?] Lake, ah. [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: That lake we used to...
Śyāmasundara: They jump?
Prabhupāda: That was the place for young men’s suicide.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh!
Prabhupāda: Mostly young boy and young girl, sometimes embracing at their suicide. Because this free love is not allowed, so they have been implicated in free love, now society will not accept. So they commit suicide. There are many, many. Now it is going on, free love.
Karāndhara: Even so-called big man like that lawyer, the other night. Their whole life they live on sentiment. Their son is giving them some problems, or sentimentally they think this or that. And because they live on their sentiments, they’re always experiencing pain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you live artificially, you will be troubled. Pramattaḥ. Therefore they have been described as pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means "mad," "crazy." Prakṛṣṭa-rūpena mattaḥ. Mattāḥ mean "mad," and pra means "exclusively mad."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, those people who are committing suicide.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they sometimes... The people say that, "Well, I will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or be God conscious," and then take some poison and die immediately. Then what happens to their life?
Prabhupāda: They get again body. Or maybe they may be liberated. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and committing suicide can be allowed. Can be allowed.
Śyāmasundara: It can be allowed?
Śyāmasundara: Just like, uh...
Prabhupāda: Because Hare Kṛṣṇa means counteracting your sins. Even though you have committed sin, it is counteracted. There is no sin.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is no sin?
Prabhupāda: [aside = Be careful.]
That you have chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra at the time of death, that will be taken seriously.
Devotee: Isn’t that one of the offenses, though?
Devotee: Isn’t that one of the offenses? Committing sinful activities on the strength of chanting?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it may be offensive, but still...
Devotee: But it is still counteracted?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, sometimes he is so frustrated with the material body that he...
Prabhupāda: Offensive means, even it is taken as offensive, he is getting a human body, not a ghostly body.
Śyāmasundara: Just like our devotee in Calcutta committed suicide. He was ...
Śyāmasundara: That tall boy, Indian boy.
Śyāmasundara: That tall boy, Indian boy, he committed suicide. He was chanting and had a picture of Kṛṣṇa at the time death.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he did like that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What did he do?
Śyāmasundara: He had a picture of you and a picture of Kṛṣṇa in front of him when he killed himself.
Prabhupāda: Why did he commit suicide? What happened to him?
Śyāmasundara: Well, I don’t know the full story, but Bhavānanda said that he was implicated with some girl.
Karāndhara: And he became addicted to drugs.
Śyāmasundara: And he kept coming to the temple, and he realized that his life..., he could not change his material life. He wanted to get out of it, so he just killed himself.
Prabhupāda: He was living nicely in the temple. His parents took him, huh? No.
Śyāmasundara: I don’t know why he left the temple. He..., just the day before he committed suicide, Bhavānanda brought him to the temple...
Prabhupāda: Yes, he came to me.
Śyāmasundara: And then he made him sit down and chant. He chanted in front of the deities all day.
Śyāmasundara: Then he went home that night and just killed himself. He left some message, note, behind...
Śyāmasundara: ...about how he just wanted to end his miserable life. And he hoped that he would get a better body next time for becoming a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Oh, a very good [indistinct].
Śyāmasundara: This tar now is all over the...
Karāndhara: This tar is now all over the temple, clothing, everything.
Prabhupāda: Clothing also?
Devotee: I’ve ruined a couple of dhotīs from it.
Prabhupāda: How did it get here? Just see how contamination expands.
Prabhupāda: Even ordinary tar, contamination. This is gross contamination.
Prabhupāda: And there are many things subtle contamination. [indistinct] Junior Haridāsa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Junior Haridāsa, yes.
Prabhupāda: He committed suicide. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him.
Śyāmasundara: What was that boy’s name in Calcutta? I can’t remember. Cakravartī was his name.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cakravartī?
Śyāmasundara: Then he became..., got initiated.
Prabhupāda: His father was an officer.
Śyāmasundara: In a shipping company, or a docks, isn’t it?
Śyāmasundara: Calcutta docks? [break]
Prabhupāda: So what does she want?
Śyāmasundara: I don’t know. She wrote... She handed me a letter to give to you last night.
Prabhupāda: Last night?
Śyāmasundara: I don’t know what she wants. I think she wants to go to India or something.
[aside = Is she going to India?]
Karāndhara: She wants to get married.
Śyāmasundara: She said there is nobody that... She is thirty years old, and there is no one to marry her.
Prabhupāda: So why she is after marriage? It's past thirty years without marriage. So you can ask her to see me. To talk. [chanting japa]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of the laws of chemical measure are discovered from the seashores. Like there is a theory called chemical equilibrium. The theory of the concept of chemical equilibrium derives from the seashore, by finding out the deposits of sodium carbonate and bicarbonate in course of time. [break]
Prabhupāda: Kevala-bodha [SB 10.14.4]. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha. Just suffering, simply by trying to understand. Kevala-bodha. There is no actually benefit, but simply "The carbon dioxide is deposited, it is made like this, it is made like that." But ultimately he’ll die. [laughs] So these are another trouble.
He cannot save himself from death, old age, disease, but he is making research. So that is described = kevala-bodha. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha. They are suffering and laboring simply to know. They cannot derive any benefit out of it.
[break] ...kaw, kaw, kaw, and then he says, "You have come. Come on." [indistinct]... the proof is there. There was no immigration department when the Britishers were there---no passport, no visa, long, long ago. Chinese used to sail. Everyone, from all countries, they used to go to India.
Karāndhara: Because the culture didn’t protect itself, therefore now it is gone.
Prabhupāda: That is they did not know, that one has to protect their soul---oppressed. Just like rogues and thieves, they did not know it. But you know it. Because that "My brother is a rogue, he must be stopped. Keep a dog."
You know that your brother is a dog; therefore you keep a dog. But they did not know. The human being is ignorant, just like child. That is real purpose. Why a man should be treated as enemy? And why a man becomes..., should become another’s enemy? This was unknown to India.
Devotee: People of India at that time were not...
Devotee: ...motivated by false ego as much as...
Prabhupāda: No, they were very simple---God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. But still in villages they’re God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Karāndhara: They will also be exploited.
Karāndhara: You find, they’ll also all be exploited.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because it’s easy for them. Just like you can exploit a child, but you cannot exploit a rogue.
Devotee: They were God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Did Kṛṣṇa not protect them from these rogues?
Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is protecting them. It does not mean that because they haven’t got flyways and motorcars they are not protected. Protection means what? Your protection idea is very limited. You want to be protected for a few years. But the protection of Kṛṣṇa is perpetually you are being protected.
Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. You don’t get any more material body. That is real protection. If you are protected for fifty years and next life become a dog, so what is your position? That is not protection. But this culture is giving you protection for future, eternally. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious and be protected for good. Therefore Kṛṣṇa... Hey?
Karāndhara: That is one of the main problems, because 99.9% of the people, they don’t want..., they don’t care about the next life.
Karāndhara: ...they only want to be...
Prabhupāda: How much foolish they are.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why to understand that "I am not this body." The first step.
Prabhupāda: That means ignorance, full of ignorance. He is not this body, that is a fact, but he does not know it.
Karāndhara: They don’t want to hear it. It’s like in China when Mao Tse-tung took over. They made a law that anyone who is preaching life after death he was repeatedly shot.
Prabhupāda: Is it that?
Karāndhara: Yes, they may have got more lenient now but after he took over he told all the Buddhist monks..
Karāndhara: ...that if you preach that there is life after death..
Prabhupāda: The Buddhist they did not preach, they say "zero."
Karāndhara: But they say there is reincarnation up until the point you become liberated or zero. So they were instructed if they preach like that they would be shot.
Prabhupāda: Just see, how much people are becoming degraded. Yes people are coming to that stage in every country. No more talk of God. Already it is there, in India the Vivekananda, that "Everyone is God, why you are seeking after God?"
Karāndhara: Materialists consider that if people think that they have many lives they won’t work so hard in this life. They will become more docile and not so interested to work very hard.
Prabhupāda: But what is the benefit of working hard?
Karāndhara: That is their illusory...
Prabhupāda: After all you are going to die, he is going to become old, by working hard if you could save yourself from birth, death, old age, and disease then you’re working hard is successful. But if you cannot live cannot stop your old age cannot stop your death, disease, then why you’re working so hard like an ass?
The ass does not know why he is working so hard therefore they are called mūḍhā. The example of ass is loading tons of cloth upon the back but he does not know why he is working so hard. What is his personal benefit? Or others benefit? He is a burden..., a beast of burden that’s all.
Karāndhara: All right in China.
Karāndhara: Some people would comment that for so long they didn’t even have enough, the people were suppressed and exploited for so long..
Prabhupāda: That is a different thing why we are not preaching that you suppress people and exploit people. We say enlighten people we don’t say suppress so if one is suppressed that is a very different thing. We don’t suppress we want to make everyone full knowledge brāhmaṇa that is not suppression that is elevation. So why elevation should be compared with suppression?
Karāndhara: Well because in the past those who came and exploited them they also preached...
Prabhupāda: That is another thing if somebody cheats you with counterfeit money that does not mean that there is no real money.
Devotee: People have become very sceptical though, that there is real money.
Prabhupāda: That is another---nonsense. Because you have been cheated therefore there is no honest man. You are unfortunate you could not meet an honest man. You cannot say there is no honest man.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda also in Dallas in that Indian family one of the persons asked how can I find out an intelligent person, or a saintly person?
Prabhupāda: If you are intelligent..
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes Śrīla Prabhupāda answer.
Prabhupāda: If you are intelligent you can find out, if you are a rascal you’ll find out asses. Just like when you go to purchase something from the store if you are intelligent you’ll purchase the first-class. If you are a fool they will cheat you. So it depends on you.
[break] ...they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and those who are rascals they are going to Guru Baba---Guru Mahārāja. This is the proof.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: [laughs] yes that’s a nice example.
Prabhupāda: From Guru Mahārāja somebody is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness but from Kṛṣṇa consciousness nobody is going to Guru Mahārāja.
Devotee: Jaya. [break]
Prabhupāda: How can so many people have come to our camp? But from our camp where is the---almost nil. [break] Oh hari-nāma...
[break] [indistinct] that is called it [indistinct] or advanced? But still people are attracted. It is a fact Bhagavad-gītā was spoken from the historical point of view 5000 years ago. So according to modern scientists view 5000 years ago people were fools and primitive.
Karāndhara: I don’t think most historians consider it was spoken 5000 years ago.
Prabhupāda: Well most---but we have got our own authority not that we have to accept this authority of the historian. There are many historians they have proved 5000 years ago Vyāsadeva has spoken. That disagreement is always there, a section believes a section does not believe. That is in every case why do you take only Bhagavad-gītā? In every case, a section will accept a section will not accept.
Karāndhara: Well the so-called most authoritative like even Dr. Radhakrishna himself was...
Prabhupāda: But Dr. Radhak.. Is no.. According to our authority he is a rascal.
Karāndhara: According to the majority..
Prabhupāda: We have got authority, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya we have so such authorities not a rascal like Radhakrishna.
Karāndhara: Unfortunately the majority accept him.
Prabhupāda: The majority may have accepted him but they are simply dogs and camels and hogs. The majority is compared with these hogs, camels and dogs, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ [SB 2.3.19]. What is the use of majority vote if they are camels and dogs and hogs?
Devotee: [chanting japa] [break].
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] are not bona-fide. The [indistinct] also [indistinct], why the Communists everyone [indistinct] maybe [indistinct].
Devotee: [chanting japa]
Prabhupāda: Socrates was killed for this reason, eh? Because he believed in the soul, the immortality of the soul.
Karāndhara: Socrates would go around and he would ask questions.
Karāndhara: He would go around and ask questions to everyone.
Karāndhara: And the questions were so disturbing that everyone became... They wanted to get rid of him.
Prabhupāda: What was the question?
Karāndhara: Well he would ask questions in that connection about what is the value of so much material things? What is the value of an imperfect government? The nonsense civilisation. So much agitating...
Prabhupāda: They were very kind upon him. That they allowed him to speak. But eh, Socrates is the beginning of Western philosopher.
Prabhupāda: Yes his wife was also teaching him, for becoming a philosopher. His wife used to throw water upon him. You know that?
Karāndhara: No I didn’t know that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: [laughs]
Prabhupāda: She was so disgusted that she would take a bucket full of water and throw it.
Devotee: So we have an understanding that when one takes his own life he takes a ghosts body but in the case of Socrates who was an advanced soul would the understanding be there?
Karāndhara: Well he was actually... he didn’t actually commit suicide.
Devotee: He drank the hemlock.
Prabhupāda: But he did not.
Karāndhara: He was forced.
Devotee: He was forced.
Prabhupāda: He was forced that is not suicide. If I kill you that is not suicide.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can see the Sun now. [laughs]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can see the Sun. [break]
Prabhupāda: What is there? [break] he wants to exactly imitate Western culture. So they do not like our movement Indian authorities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Westerners in general think that whatever they do is the best.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Westerners.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In all fields they think that whatever they do is the best.
Prabhupāda: Yes because the whole world approves.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now skyscraper buildings was began from America now everyone is imitating.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The flyways the highways, the sky everything. America developed the hippies they are imitating also [indistinct]. In India they are also imitating even in the very aristocratic families I’ve seen hippies cut out of one of the most rich and aristocratic families in Bombay.
Their sons and daughters became hippies. In Nairobi I have seen that Damji he has a small mansion he is imitating hippies. When there was war, First World War, some of the High Court judges were talking about the war. They were talking friendly one English judge asked Mr Mukherjee, Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, "Well Mr Mukherjee the Germans are getting powerful if they come what you will do?"
He said, "Yes Sir, we will do like this, so we will welcome." He asked, "why?" "Because you have taught us like this. Anything European must be good. The Germans are Europeans. You have taught nothing better than this and anything European is first-class. So Germans and Europeans we shall welcome." [break]
My movement from this angle of vision that, "these things we rejected we threw it away and how is that this Bhaktivedanta Svāmī is preaching and European and Americans are accepting?" They are appreciating only this point, not the philosophy. In every paper they discuss like that, "How is it? We rejected such kind of things that there is no necessity, it is useless throw it and now it is being accepted! By the people whom we think [indistinct]."
That is their surprise. Here people are gradually appreciating higher subjects. Just like yesterday the lawyer came he was very much appreciative.
[break] ...an elder gentleman came here and he said, "Swamiji it is a great fortune that you have come to us." [indistinct] in Los Angeles. They will appreciate very well they will make comparisons... That’s all right children... That side also one signboard?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]