"...abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail. Nor there's any other influence in the matter of goodness. There is no predominant..."
Prabhupāda: Nor there is...? Nor there is...?
Pradyumna: "Nor is there any of their influence in the matter of goodness."
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Pradyumna: "There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy that cannot enter in that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees."
Prabhupāda: So this is the description, beginning, just to get an idea of the spiritual world. Unless we go there... Just like we have come to Japan. We are getting direct experience. But before coming here, from books and literature and maps---it is an example---we can get some information what is Japan. Similarly, the spiritual world, what is that spiritual world, in other places, in Upaniṣad also describes.
In the Bhagavad-gītā also, this description, na tad bhāsayate sūryo na candro na pāvakaḥ [Bg. 15.6] = there is no need of sunlight, moonlight, what to speak of the stars, neither na pāvakaḥ, neither electricity. Na tad bhāsayate sūryo na candro na pāvakaḥ. Here in this material world we cannot see things without sunlight, moonlight or electricity.
We are proud of our eyes, but as soon as there is no light... Now there is sunlight; we can see very nicely. The spiritual world is not like that. There is no need of sunlight, moonlight or electricity. The first impression is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Similarly here also,
pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ
sattvaṁ ca miśraṁ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ
sattvaṁ ca miśraṁ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ
Na..., na pravartate. What is the meaning?
Pradyumna: Na pravartate? "Prevail."
Prabhupāda: "Not prevail." "Does not prevail." What is that? Here there are three material modes of nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa: goodness, passion and ignorance. These things are not there. Here the sattva-guṇa, the goodness, is also polluted, miśram. Here... Just like sometimes a brāhmaṇa, born of a brāhmaṇa family, very first class, all, everything, but he is working as a śūdra, not pure. There is mixture.
Therefore it is said, sattvaṁ ca miśram. Sattvaṁ ca miśram. Miśram means sometimes there is... Because all qualities of the material nature is helping me to misidentify my position. In the lower stage... Just like animals, the dog. In the lower stage of tamo-guṇa, unnecessarily, "Gow gow! Why you have come here? Why you are coming?" You see? So this is the lowest stage of tamo-guṇa.
There is no offense, still he will disturb people. So tamo-guṇa is lowest stage. Little more, passion, rajo-guṇa: "Beware of the dogs." He does not make "Gow! Gow!" but he points out, "Here is dog. Please don't come." Similarly, sattva-guṇa also = "I am Mr. Such-and-such. You cannot see without engagement." So these things are going on, the influence of three modes of material nature.
So these things are not there. There they do not require to keep a dog, neither there is dog. You see? Just to make an idea what is Vaikuṇṭhaloka. Because vaikuṇṭha means without anxiety. Vaikuṇṭha. Kuṇṭha means anxiety, and vaikuṇṭha means without anxiety. So if you have no anxiety, what is the use of keeping dog for making "Gow! Gow!"? You have no anxiety. Just like in Japan the practice is... Generally they say that there is no thief.
Sudāmā: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So actually if there is no thief, where is the cause of anxiety, if there is no burglar, thieves, rogues? It is the duty actually. It is the duty of the king to see that there should be no thieves. People should be anxiety-free. That is nice government. People... Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, when he was ruling, there was not even scorching heat. People were so anxiety-free. You see? Due to pious activities of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was no severe cold or scorching heat, no dangerous disease, infection. They were all free from all this. It can be possible if there is good government.
So here is the idea. Pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ sattvaṁ ca miśraṁ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ. Kāla-vikramaḥ. Here we are governed by the stringent laws of time. I am getting old. Kāla-vikramaḥ. The body is getting seventy-six years. This means time has eaten up my duration of life seventy-six years, influence of time. You cannot avoid it. Kāla-vikramaḥ.
Na yatra māyā. Māyā, illusion. Either fixed-up idea... Everyone knows Lord Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality, and they are all happy by serving the Lord. Everyone is engaged. Surāsurārcitāḥ anuvratāḥ. They are not..., they have no revolutionary spirit = "Oh, why shall I serve You? I am also God." This is revolutionary. These things are not there. The so-called rascal, declaring oneself that "I am God," no. Anuvrata. Everyone is following = "Oh, here is Lord."
In the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is very great, respectful consciousness, "Here is Lord." But in Vṛndāvana, there is no such respectful consciousness, Kṛṣṇa and the cowherds boys, gopīs, but their love is very, very intense. Out of love, they cannot disobey Kṛṣṇa. Here in the Vaikuṇṭha, out of respect, they cannot disobey. In the Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, they cannot think of denying anything to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is so much lovable. They can give anything. There is no so respectful, because they do not know whether Kṛṣṇa is God or not. They know, "Kṛṣṇa is like us, one of us." But their respect and love is so intense that without Kṛṣṇa they become lifeless. There is no life.
So here we are defying Kṛṣṇa, defying God. We are declaring falsely, "I am God. You are God. Why you are searching God? These Gods are loitering in the street. You just try to serve them. Why you are searching in the temple?" These things are kāla-vikramaḥ, influence of time; māyā, illusion; and so many things. These things are absent.
So what is the purport? Just see. And surāsurārcitāḥ. There, there is no more distinction between sura and asura. Here, asuras, they are not devotees. They deny. So asura, how the asura goes there? The asura does not go there as asura, but he goes there as devotee. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja = he is the son of an asura, Hiraṇyakaśipu; therefore he is classified asura, son of asura. But this asura quality is no more existing there, although he is promoted. In other words, when one is transferred to the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no such distinction between sura and asura. Why there should be? Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.
So in other words, here also, anyone who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, it doesn't matter whether he is born in mleccha family, yavana family or Muslim family or Hindu family or brāhmaṇa family. These distinctions are completely abolished, because the real business... Everyone is mukta, liberated. He is engaged in real business, Kṛṣṇa's service.
What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The kingdom of God, or the atmosphere of Vaikuṇṭha nature, which is called the tripād-vibhūti, is three times bigger than the material universes and is described here, as also in the Bhagavad-gītā, in a nutshell. This universe, containing billions of stars and planets, is one of the billions of such universes clustered together within the compass of mahat-tattva. And all these millions and billions of universes combined together constitute only one-fourth of the magnitude of the whole creation of the Lord.
"There is the spiritual sky also. Beyond this sky the spiritual planets are there under the names of Vaikuṇṭha, and all of them constitute three-fourths of the entire creation of the Lord. God's creations are always innumerable. Even leaves of a tree cannot be counted by a man, nor the hairs on his head. However, foolish men are puffed up with the idea of becoming God himself, although unable to create a hair of their own bodies."
Prabhupāda: So I have protested this false God consciousness in all my purports. That is my business, [chuckles] to punish all these rascals. You see? I become very much angry anyone says before me, "I am God, he is God, everyone..." I cannot control myself. [laughter] Yes. I am so obstinate enemy of these rascals. I want to kick them on their face, but it is incivility. It becomes... But I want to kick them. It will be my pleasure, never mind I go to hell.
Pradyumna: "Man may discover so many wonderful vehicles of journey, but even if he reaches the moon by his much advertised spacecraft, he cannot remain there. The sane man, therefore, without being puffed up as if he were the god of the universe, abides by the instructions of the Vedic literature, the easiest way to acquire knowledge in transcendence. So let us know through the authority of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam of the nature and constitution of the transcendental world beyond the material sky. In that sky the material qualities..."
Prabhupāda: They are going to different planets... They cannot go. Suppose if they are going = so taking so much trouble, expending so much money, they are trying to study. But we study within this room, even up to Vaikuṇṭha planet. Huh? These rascals are taking so much trouble, and still unsuccessful. And we are getting all clear idea. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. That is the perfection of Vedic literature.
In remote jungle they are sitting, they are enjoying spiritual atmosphere and getting all information from the Vedic literature. How much, I mean to say, fortunate we are, those who have taken shelter of this Vedic literature. We get all information. Is there any doubt? So why should we take so much trouble? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take information, be prepared, and at the time of death, think of Kṛṣṇa. Immediately transferred within a second. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Within a second, transferred.
Because spirit soul is finer than the mind. So mind can be transferred immediately, within a second, millions of miles away. So how much speed is there for spirit soul, you can imagine. Mind, you can immediately... You are sitting here. Immediately you can transfer mind, Bombay = you are seeing, the kīrtana is going on. It is practical. Manaso vāyuḥ. Vāyu, the velocity of the air, and finer than the... Because air is gross matter and mind is subtle matter, so the speed of mind is far greater than the velocity of air. Air, the velocity of air is two thousand miles per... Or two hundred miles? Like that?
Śyāmasundara: Of light? Velocity of light?
Prabhupāda: Light or air. What is the...?
Śyāmasundara: Velocity of light is 5,280 miles per second.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Light. Light is subtler than air. Light is fire. Light is electricity. Electricity is produced by air. So first gross matter---this earth. And subtler than earth is water, and subtler than water is..., the air? No. Subtler than water is fire. So electricity... You told me the velocity of electricity?
Śyāmasundara: Uh, yes, 428,000 miles per second.
Prabhupāda: Per second. So this is the third subtlement. The fourth subtlement matter is air. The air must be still greater velocity. And air, from air... Just like we get radio message. In one second, one sound rotates seven times. Is it not?
Śyāmasundara: Speed of light. It goes, I think...
Prabhupāda: Not speed of... Sound. You say "Kṛṣṇa"; this word, immediately within a second, seven times. And therefore we quickly capture. We have got a machine. So therefore it is still speedy, sound. Sound is sky. So subtler than the sound is the mind. Then you can imagine how much speedy is mind, how many millions of miles you can go.
And subtler than the mind is soul. So just imagine how quickly the soul can be transferred to the other world, other planet. You can transfer by yogic principle. So it is said, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. The most subtler. And in the spiritual world that is completely spiritual. There is no tinge or contamination of anything of this material embarrassment. Ahaituky apratihatā.
Then, what is...?
Pradyumna: "In that sky the material qualities, especially the modes of ignorance and passion, are completely absent. The mode of ignorance influences a living entity to the habit of lust and hankering. And this means that in the Vaikuṇṭhalokas the living entities are free from these two things. As confirmed in the..."
Prabhupāda: Lust and anger. These two things completely... Then?
Pradyumna: "As confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, in the brahma-bhūta stage of life one becomes free from hankering and lamentation. Therefore the conclusion is that the inhabitants of the Vaikuṇṭha planets are all brahma-bhūta living entities, as distinguished from the mundane creatures, who are all compact in hankering and lamentation. When one is not in the modes of ignorance and passion, one is supposed to be situated in the mode of goodness in the material world. Goodness in the material world also at times becomes contaminated with touches of the mode of passion and ignorance. In the Vaikuṇṭhaloka it is unalloyed goodness only. The whole situation there is one of freedom from the illusory manifestation of the external energy.
"Although the illusory energy is also a part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, still, illusory energy is differentiated from the Lord. The illusory energy is not, however, false, as claimed by the monist philosophers. The rope accepted as a snake may be an illusion to a particular person, but the rope is a fact, and the snake is also a fact. The illusion of water on the hot desert may be illusion for the ignorant animal searching out water in the desert, but the desert and water are actual facts. Therefore the material creation of the Lord may be an illusion to the nondevotee class of men, but to a devotee, even the material creation of the Lord is a fact, as the manifestation of His external energy. But this energy of the Lord is not all. The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation, known to be the Vaikuṇṭhalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion and no past and present.
"With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the Vaikuṇṭha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. A spacecraft cannot reach these planets does not mean that there are no such planets, for they are described in the revealed scriptures. As quoted by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, we can know from the Nārada Pañcarātra that the transcendental world, or Vaikuṇṭha atmosphere, is enriched with transcendental qualities. These transcendental qualities, as revealed through the devotional service of the Lord, are distinct from the mundane qualities of ignorance, passion and goodness. Such qualities are nonattainable by the nondevotee class of men.
"In the Padma Purāṇa, Uttara-khaṇḍa, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God's creation there is the three-fourths part manifestation. The marginal line between..."
Prabhupāda: Just see how we are getting information about the space. Just see. Beyond this material sky this space is..., information of the space is there. They cannot have any information of this material space, what to speak of the spiritual space. How much our knowledge is perfect. Either we are crazy, or thinking, or we are in a very secure position than all these rascals. What do you think? Clear conception of everything.
Pradyumna: "The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajā River. And beyond the Virajā, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths part manifestation of God's creation. This part is eternal, everlasting, without any deterioration and unlimited, and contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions.
"In the Sāṅkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness, or transcendence, is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities are eternally associated, without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity there. In the Āgama Purāṇas also the transcendental abode is described as follows = The associated members there are free to go everywhere within the creation of the Lord, and there is no limit to such creation, particularly in the region of the three-fourths magnitude. Since the nature of that region is unlimited, there is no history of such association, nor is there end of it.
"The conclusion may be drawn that because of the complete absence of the mundane qualities of ignorance and passion, there is no question of creation, nor of annihilation. In the material world everything is created and everything is annihilated, and the duration of life between the creation and annihilation is temporary. In the transcendental realm, there is no creation and no destruction, and thus the duration of life is eternal unlimitedly. In other words, everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss, without any deterioration. Since there is no deterioration, there is no past, present and future in the estimation of time. It is clearly stated in this verse that the influence of time is conspicuous by its absence.
"The whole material existence is manifested by actions and reactions of elements which make up the influence of time prominent in the matter of past, present and future. There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there. So the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation, or the six material changes, are nonexistent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord without any illusion as experienced here in the material world. The whole Vaikuṇṭha existence proclaims that everyone there is a follower of the Lord. The Lord is the chief leader there, without any competition of leadership, and the people in general are all followers of the Lord. It is confirmed in the Vedas, therefore, that the Lord is the chief leader, and all other living entities are subordinate to Him."
Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13].
Pradyumna: "It is confirmed in the Vedas, therefore, that the Lord is the chief leader and all other living entities are subordinate to Him as only the Lord..."
Prabhupāda: So we have accepted the original leader, Kṛṣṇa. Why should we follow the nonsense leader, who has no perfect knowledge? We have accepted the supreme leader. That is our advantage. Then?
Pradyumna: "...as only the Lord satisfies all the needs of all other living entities."
Prabhupāda: And He is so able leader that He supplies everything. He is not a false leader. Then?
Pradyumna: That is the end of the purport.
Prabhupāda: That's all. So stick to this leader. Don't deviate. [chuckles] That's all.
Devotee: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [end]