Prabhupāda: [indistinct] ...these living symptoms develop. The anthropology, Darwin's theory. They do not believe in soul, transmigration of the soul. They have their own theory. But they are also not definite. Those who have read Darwin's theory of anthropology, in most places that Mr. Darwin says, "Perhaps it was like this, perhaps it was like this."

And according to his theory, there was no existence of human being ten thousand years ago. But we followers of Vedic...

[child making noises] You have to stop.

...version, we don't believe to all this nonsense; neither there is any basic principle.

Now take for example the atheistic theory—call it by any name—that combination of matter makes a living symptom possible. So scientific, I mean to say, proposition is based on observation and experiment. So this is simply observation, that those who are atheistic person... Just like medical science: There are many doctors. They are observing when a man dies, observing, feeling the pulse, taking pulse beating, offering oxygen gas, trying to save him.

All of a sudden the man dies—and he is sure to die—but they cannot simply observe the symptoms. They cannot observe what is that thing which is gone now. They cannot say that. Neither it is possible for them to say. But their theory that combination of matter makes symptoms of life possible, they should prove it by experiment. Then it is complete science. Observation and experiment.

But there is no such experiment till now. You trace out the history of the human society... Of course, in the modern world they cannot trace out chronological history more than three thousand years. That's all. But we can give account for many millions and millions of years. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]:

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

"I spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." Now just imagine how many years, millions of years.

So the modern theory that ten thousand years ago there was no human civilization, how we can adjust things? The Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought five thousand years ago. Before that, hundreds of thousands year ago there was another battle, which is called fight between Rāma and Rāvaṇa.

And there are so many instances in the Vedic literature. We can offer history of the world, of the universe, from millions and millions of years ago. But these people with petty knowledge for three thousand years or four thousand years, they are thinking they have advanced.

So this theory was current in those days also; otherwise why Kṛṣṇa is making reference to this theory? So all kinds of theories are existent since the beginning of this creation. But sometimes some theory is very prominent, sometimes some theory is not prominent. That's all.

So this atheistic theory, that combination of matter... Just like you combine some chemicals and you get some product, similarly, the modern scientist says that carbon dioxide, soda bicarb—they name so many chemicals—is the combination of this body. That is chemical analysis of this body. But can you produce? You have got all the chemicals.

Can you produce even the body of an ant by combination of carbon dioxide, soda bicarb and so many chemicals? Just produce, not human being, just produce even a small ant which is moving. Combine. That you cannot.

So such theories, at least, we cannot accept. But Kṛṣṇa is giving argument to Arjuna, "If you think that this is an accidental combination of several chemicals, then where there is cause of lamentation?" Suppose in a bottle you have got certain combination of chemicals. If that bottle is broken, is there any cause of lamentation?

All right, we shall get another bottle of this chemical combination. So Kṛṣṇa is forwarding this argument, that if you think that this body, there is no soul, there is no transmigration of the soul, simply it has happened under certain accidental chemical combination and it will dis..., what is called, dislocated, or dismantle at a certain period, so where is the cause of lamentation? Why you are lamenting? This is His argument.

Go on.

Devotee: "Even if Arjuna did not believe in the existence of the soul, as in the vaibhāṣika philosophy, there would still have been no cause for lamentation. Nobody would lament the loss of a certain bulk of chemicals and stop discharging his prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose some chemical combined bottle is there; by accident it is broken. Does it mean that I shall give up all my duties to be done? And lament for the bottle only? What is this? [laughs] "Arjuna, you are My friend"—he was friend of Kṛṣṇa—"You have become so fool that you are lamenting for loss of a chemical bottle?" This is the argument. Yes.

Devotee: "On the other hand, in modern science and scientific warfare so many tons of chemicals are wasted in achieving victory over the enemy."

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are manufacturing so many atomic bomb and hydrogen bomb, this bomb—huge, expensive chemical. So that is lost, so who is crying for that? Go on.

Devotee: "According to the vaibhāṣika philosophy, the so-called soul, or ātmā, vanishes along with the deterioration of the body."

Prabhupāda: The modern theories, they are exactly like that. They want to... Yes, our Kārttikeya was telling that the boys, the young boys and girls, they put forward this theory that "Our parents have made the position of the world so unsafe. So we do not know when we shall..., our this body will be finished. So better to enjoy this bodily sense gratification as far as possible quickly."

Is not that theory you were telling me? Huh? Is it a fact they are thinking like that? Oh, now, see this nonsense. Now supposing there is soul... And why not suppose? Because experimentally you have not proved that by chemical combination you can produce such moving things.

So more or less, the modern civilization is in darkness. That is the treatment of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Lokasyājānata [SB 1.7.6].

[The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth.]

The all the people of the world, they are rascals and fools. That is the statement in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto. Vyāsadeva wrote the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and the introductory portion is stated like this, you have seen, that by his devotional meditation he saw Kṛṣṇa and His material energy also.

bhakti-yogena manasi
[samyak] praṇihite 'male
apaśyat puruṣaṁ pūrṇaṁ
māyāṁ ca tad-apāśrayam

[SB 1.7.4]

[Thus he fixed his mind, perfectly engaging it by linking it in devotional service [bhakti-yoga] without any tinge of materialism, and thus he saw the Absolute Personality of Godhead along with His external energy, which was under full control.]

By bhakti-yoga meditation he saw two things. Manasi praṇihite amale. By bhakti-yoga only. The yoga process is to clear the mind. The whole process of yoga indriya-saṁyama, controlling the senses and clearing, that is actually yoga system. So the perfection of yoga system—bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga.

Because by executing bhakti-yoga you can cleanse up the mind perfectly. Yoga system, the purpose of yoga system is to cleanse up the mind, and this bhakti-yoga process... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].

[”’Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step.’]

The first benefit of this bhakti-yoga process, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, is cleansing the mind.

So Vyāsadeva, before writing... He was not an ordinary fiction writer. Anyone can write any nonsense. No. Formerly, no book will be accepted unless it is written by liberated soul. That was the system. No other man will dare to write any book, neither his book will be accepted in society—only Vedic literature and literature produced out of Vedic knowledge. That is book. Otherwise, what are these books? These fictions and novels and... They are not books; they are rubbish. Actually they are rubbish. Don't you see?

The newspaper, it is published after spending so much money. You know. Every day, the newspaper proprietors, they are paying to the news collector, to the photographers, to the staff, to the establishment huge amount of money and producing newspaper, say, fifty pages or twenty-five pages, and throwing in the street.

Nobody cares for it. Because everyone knows what is the value of this news. Nobody is taking care, "Oh, here is a newspaper behind which there is so much expenditure. Oh, here is one. Let me take it." Everyone kicks it. You see? You see practically.

Huge bundles of newspapers, nobody cares for it. That means actually this literature has no value. No value. Simply they are wasting their time producing such nonsense literature. Even if it has got any value, the newspaper boys throws early in the morning; at ten o'clock it has no more value. That's all. Finished all value. Whatever value was there, that finished by ten o'clock.

So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā is not a literature like that. Can you give any evidence, any book written five thousand years ago is still being read with still greater veneration, with greater respect, with greater attention? Is there any book in the world? Find out. Not a single book you'll find. You cannot trace out of any book written, say, thousand years or two thousand years ago. But here is a book which was spoken five thousand years ago; still, all over the world...

It is not that Bhagavad-gītā is supposed to be Hindu literature, Vedic literature, it is read simply by the Hindus. Now the number of Hindus has minimized. Practically, in some portion of that India there are few Hindus only, actually speaking. So what is the number of Hindus? That is the, what is called, minority in the whole world. If you take calculation of other religion...

I have seen the other day in the World Almanac the Hindus, the Hindus are the lowest. So how many Hindus are reading? In India not that..., ninety percent people are illiterate. So what they will read? And who is reading Bhagavad-gītā? It is all over the world. Still, you'll find in Germany Bhagavad-gītā is being read. In England you'll find. Even in Muhammadan countries you'll find, and what to speak of your country. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā, I mean to say, that see the importance of real literature.

tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo
yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api
nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat
gṛṇanti gāyanti śṛṇvanti sādhavaḥ

[SB 1.5.11]

[On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.]

That rubbish literature is compared with the enjoyable things of the crows, and spiritual literature, they are enjoyed by the white swans. [break] There is difference between the white swans. You have seen natural. They are also birds; crows are also birds. But you'll see white swans, they take pleasure in clear water where there are lilies, and they take nice pleasure there.

And crows, they will go where you throw all rubbish things. They'll go there. You see nature. People say everyone is equal. How you can say equal? Even in the bird society there is no equality, in the animal society there is no equality. Then how you can make equality? On the material platform it is not possible. You have to come to the spiritual platform; then equality is possible.

So Vyāsadeva, he was liberated soul. So in clean heart, clean mind, he experienced, he saw the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and māyā, tad-apāśrayam, and māyā standing behind Him. Māyā is darkness. Māyā cannot stand before Kṛṣṇa, just like darkness cannot stand in front of the light.

Now here is light. There is no darkness. In the back side you'll find some darkness. Is it not? Not in the front. So māyā cannot stand before Kṛṣṇa. Māyā stands behind Kṛṣṇa. So if you put always Kṛṣṇa, or if you are always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then māyā cannot touch you.

kṛṣṇa—sūrya-sama māyā haya andhakāra
yāhāṅ kṛṣṇa tāhāṅ nāhi māyāra adhikāra

[Cc. Madhya 22.31]

[“Kṛṣṇa is compared to sunshine, and māyā is compared to darkness. Wherever there is sunshine, there cannot be darkness. As soon as one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the darkness of illusion (the influence of the external energy) will immediately vanish.]

So Vyāsadeva, in clear consciousness, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he saw Kṛṣṇa and this māyā. And what is this māyā? That is said, yayā sammohito jīva: that māyā which has enchanted all these conditioned souls. Yayā sammohito jīva ātmānam anarthaṁ manute [SB 1.7.5],

[Due to this external energy, the living entity, although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks of himself as a material product and thus undergoes the reactions of material miseries.]

Considering himself that "I am material product." I am coming to this point. Those who are thinking that "I am a material product," they're completely in darkness of māyā. Yayā, manute anarthaṁ tat-kṛtaṁ ca abhipadyate. And identifying himself with this body, they are acting in bodily consciousness and increasing their problems of life and conditional life in material existence. Horrible condition. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6].

[The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth.]

Anartha, this anartha, this misconception of life, if you want to discard this misconception of life, that "I am this body," and you act according to that consciousness and suffer... This is your disease.

Now if you want to get out of this disease, then sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje: you just try to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sākṣāt. Lokasyājānata. The rascal people, they do not know it. Therefore, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore vidvān. Vidvān means this learned scholar, Vyāsadeva, he prepared the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Lokasyājānata. The rascal people, they do not know. They are being carried off by this misconception that "I am this body, and my body will be finished within so many years. Now I have got this chance, I have got my strong body, let me have sex life as far as possible, then finish it. Who knows where I am going, what is the path?" You see?

It is dangerous civilization. Dangerous. And anyone who will come and say, "Yes, you enjoy your senses and simply sit down for fifteen minutes, and you chant this one alphabet—bās. You finish your business." This is going on. Don't be misled in that way. Try to understand Bhagavad-gītā perfectly. You'll be happy in this life and next life.

Go on.

Devotee: "According to the vaibhāṣika philosophy, the so-called soul, or ātmā, vanishes along with the deterioration of the body. So, in any case, whether Arjuna accepted the Vedic conclusion that there is an atomic soul or whether he did not believe in the existence of the soul, he had no reason for lamenting. According to this theory, since there are so many entities generating out of matter every moment, and so many of them are being vanquished at every moment, there is no need to grieve for such an incidence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material creation, just like bubbles in the ocean. You have seen, standing on the bank of the Pacific Ocean, oh, so many thousands of bubbles created in a second, and again thousands of bubbles gone in a second. Now, who is crying there? "Oh, so many bubbles were created, and they are gone, they are gone, they are gone." [laughter] It is nonsense. [laughs]

So Kṛṣṇa is very nicely giving argument that "If you think there is no soul—it is being manufactured by the interaction of the physical element—so it is just like bubbles in the ocean. So many bubbles are created and destroyed every moment. So what is there cause of lamentation? What is your reason?"


Devotee: "However..."

Prabhupāda: Just like modern people, they are after peace, stopping war. And suppose you stop war. Can you stop death? Then why you are after stopping war? Why you forget your real business? They are after stopping war. And suppose war is stopped, nobody takes to war anymore. Now, how you'll stop the war of this material nature?

She is fighting always with you. From the beginning of your birth she is fighting. A child is born, and the material nature is killing this child every moment. The child has grown, two years old. That means material nature has already killed this child for two years. How you can stop this? These nonsense, they do not consider these cases.

Suppose if I stop war—there will be no more war, no more disease. No more disease cannot be possible. You can make by some way no more war. That is also not possible. Anyway, if you stop it by the efforts of the United Nation, a very large organization, then how you are going to stop death? What is your proposition? There is no, nothing. So what is the use of stopping war?

Suppose in the war some young men die. That's all right. So many young men die within the hospital in the disease. And sometimes old men, they do not die even in the war. So life and death is not in your hand. You don't think that stopping this or increasing this, you'll be able to stop all inconveniences.

Just take, for example, this boy, Bīrabhadra, was struck by a car. All right, he was in the street. But another boy, he fell on the staircase and broke his leg. He was at home; he met accident. So how you can stop this, the onslaught of material nature? Everywhere, either you are at home or you are outside; either you are young, you are old; either you are scientist or philosopher—whatever you are, the material nature will not allow you to live in peaceful condition. That is her business. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14].

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

You cannot live peacefully, that is not possible. The only peaceful condition is that you become in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other alternative. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā [Cc. Ādi 17.21].

[”’In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.’]

Lord Caitanya clearly says, "There is no other alternative, no other alternative, no other alternative." It is not that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is one of the so many movements. No. It is the only one movement that can give peace and life and prosperity to the people.


Devotee: "However, since he was not risking rebirth of the soul, Arjuna had no reason to be afraid of being affected with sinful activities due to his killing grandfather and teacher. But at the same time, Kṛṣṇa sarcastically addressed Arjuna as mahā-bāhu, mighty-armed, because He, at least, did not accept the theory of the vaibhāṣikas, which leaves aside the Vedic wisdom. [break] Arjuna belonged to the Vedic culture, and it behooved him that he continue to follow its principles."


Prabhupāda: He is, as a friend, He's criticizing that "You are professing to be followers of Vedic culture, and you are accepting some nonsense culture. That is not good for you." All right, stop there.

So you read carefully Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Every word, every line is so, I mean to say, instructive. It is simply... That is the basic principle of spiritual knowledge. Now we have presented. Every one of you should very carefully read. Every one of you must have one book and read it carefully and appear in the examination next Janmāṣṭamī. You'll get designation, [chuckles] Bhakti-śāstrī. Yes.

So any question? Now invite people to come here. We have got now a nice place. What do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. That will be very nice. It will be a great pleasure to invite people here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And have meeting. On Love Feast day, supply them kṛṣṇa-prasādam. Invite some prominent gentlemen to preside over, to become our chief guest. And in this way make propaganda. And put signboards all through the street with electric light, make the gardens very nicely. This is service. Now you have got the chance to serve. Do it. Here is a chance.

We are... Whether a man understands Kṛṣṇa philosophy or not, we don't care for it. Of course, if he understands, it is a great pleasure for us. But we are working on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, on behalf of Lord Caitanya. That should be our philosophy. Don't be disappointed that the whole day you work, you got no collection, and nobody was interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No. Don't be disappointed. You have worked sincerely the whole day, that is your credit. That's all. That's your credit.

Kṛṣṇa will see, bhāva-grāhī-janārdana.

[The Lord accepts the essence of a devotee's attitude.]

Kṛṣṇa wants to see that how much you are spending your valuable life and energy for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Don't be disappointed that many men are not coming here or we are very poorly pushing on. Never mind. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has given us, chance, let us utilize it. Now here is a chance, Kṛṣṇa has given us. We were searching after a place. Now I think you have got the best place. Better than that storefront or better than that Mel... Mel... What is called?

Devotees: Melrose.

Prabhupāda: Melrose Avenue upstairs. It is very nice. So you organize it and let us see what Kṛṣṇa does. There is no question of disappointment. Yes?

Devotee: Prabhupāda, what is a Manu, and how is a Manu the father of mankind, as it is stated in Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Manu is the name, and because mankind is born, therefore they are called manuṣya. Manuṣya, "born of Manu." Manu is the name. Just like in some parts of England they are called Angels? In the past history, during the Roman occupation of England, they are known as Angels? You don't know?

Woman devotee: Anglos?

Prabhupāda: Angles, yes.

Woman devotee: Anglo-Saxon.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So from Anglos, they have become English. Similarly, Manu. Manu is the name of the son of Brahmā, Vaivasvata Manu. Just like Nārada is one of the sons. So there are so many sons. Brahmā was the original living being, so he created so many sons, and they created so many sons. In this way the population of the whole universe has increased. So Manu is one of the son.

There are fourteen Manus in one day of Brahmā. These things I have discussed many times. And the mankind, they come from Manu. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha [Bg. 4.1].

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

Manu, this Manu, there are different Manus, fourteen Manus in one day. This present Manu under whom we are now living within this universe, he's the son of sun-god, Vivasvān. So he has got his different planet, as the sun has got different planet.

So his son Ikṣvāku was given this earthly planet to rule over, and from that generation, Mahārāja Ikṣvāku, Lord Rāmacandra appeared. In this way the kṣatriyas, they spread all over the world. I have several times said that most of the Europeans, they belong to the original kṣatriyas. So the human history has spread, not only in this planet, in many other planets.

So Manu is the father of mankind. From the word man... This is Latin? Latin word? Man? Sanskrit word is manuṣya, from Manu, that is "man." So Manu is accepted as the father of the mankind in Sanskrit literature. And in Bible it is said the man is made after God.

So actually, Brahmā is the son of Viṣṇu, and Manu is the son of Brahmā, and we are also son of Manu in different aspect. So gradually, if you go up, God comes to be our original father. And we say also, God is the original father. And the history, Vedic history, also says like that.

So God... Because we have got form, therefore God has form, must be. Just like my father had form, so I have got this form. This is commonsense knowledge. How my father can be impersonal? Unless my father was a person, how I am a person? If God is the original father, He must be a person.

Otherwise how we are person? These are commonsense knowledge. There is no need of very great knowledge. A child can understand. How you can say God is imperson? If God is the father, original, then how He can be imperson? What do you say? Can anybody say, "Yes, He can be imperson in this way"?

God cannot be imperson. He is person. And we get so many information. Kṛṣṇa says Himself that "In the past I was a person, you were a person, and all these men who have assembled here in the battlefield, they are also persons. We existed in the past as persons, and we shall continue to exist as individual persons." So at least we cannot, we Vaiṣṇava followers of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, we cannot accept, neither there is any reason behind it. What do you think? Huh?

Devotee: I agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who does not agree? Where is Aravinda? He sometimes does not agree.

Devotee: He's minding your house.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] All right. What is that?

Viṣṇujana: There are people not here who don't agree, who say God can be realized as a clear light or an abstract anathema.

Prabhupāda: That is for the less intelligent. Less intelligent. Just like from a distant place, if you see that a railway engine is coming, you'll see the light. So a rascal will say, "A light is coming." [laughter] But one who knows, he will say, "A train is coming." So it is less intelligent. That's all. A rascal will say light is coming. That's all. So they are all rascals. They have no sufficient knowledge. What do you think?

Viṣṇujana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tell them that "You are all rascals." [laughter] "You just come and learn here from us. Then you say what is God. You have no knowledge." Just like somebody says that the sunlight, the dazzling sunlight.

Clear sun planet is there. And because they cannot enter even in the moon planet, how they can enter in the sun planet? If they enter sun planet, they will find that there is a person whose bodily effulgence is this sunlight. Similarly, the original person, Kṛṣṇa, has got His effulgence. We get information from Brahma-saṁhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upaniṣads, being differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.]

Just like the sun-god is diffusing the effulgence of his bodily light in this universe, in one universe, similarly, the original person, He is diffusing that light.

So those who are less intelligent, they simply can see that light; therefore they say light. But in the Vedic literature there is information that you have to search out the Supreme Person penetrating the light. In the Īśopaniṣad it says, "My dear Lord, please wind up this effulgent light so that I can see Your face actually." That is stated in the Vedic literature.

So originally the Absolute Supreme Truth is a person. If you want proof from Vedas, there is proof. Bhagavad-gītā is proof. Why should we accept a third-class man who is speaking something against? Is that man greater than Kṛṣṇa? Then why shall I talk about him? He's not important even an ordinary man. We shall treat all these persons less intelligent, foolish. They have no perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth. What do you think?

Viṣṇujana: The world needs Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Viṣṇujana: The world has never had anything like Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know. Less intelligent. Ajānam. This very word is used in the Śrīmad... Ajānata... Jānata means with knowledge. A-jāna, "a" is negative. Without any knowledge. And in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll see that bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

These less intelligent class of men, they are searching after the Absolute Truth. That is also creditable. They are searching. But they have not come to the right point. The right point is here, as Kṛṣṇa says, that "After many, many births of research work, when he actually becomes a wise man, he surrenders unto Me," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], that "Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything." That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So ultimate knowledge means to understand the Supreme Person. What is the value if somebody has studied very elaborately the sunshine, but he has no access to enter into the sun planet or to understand the sun-god within? Is it a very enlightenment? Suppose the sunshine is all-pervading the universe. One has studied the sunshine very nicely. That man, and one has entered the sun planet and seen the sun-god, who is better? Who is better?

Viṣṇujana: That man who has the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Who has entered the sun planet and seen the sun-god, he is better. This is common sense. So, you will have more kīrtana? All right. [devotees offer obeisances]

[aside:] Jayānanda told me that is very cold. So you are enjoying? Not at all cold?

[kīrtana] [end]