Prabhupāda: [aside:] Dr Rao has not come? If somebody would have translated in Hindi, then these ladies could have enjoyed. [Hindi]

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā
kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā
tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate

[Cc. Madhya 6.154]

So we are discussing three kinds of energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yesterday the question was, some gentleman, that whether the Ultimate Truth, Absolute Truth, is a person or imperson.

There are many impersonalists, and there are many personalists also. The personalist, impersonalist, and the localized Paramātmā worshiper, they are worshiping the same Absolute Truth in different features. Impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā and Personality of Godhead, they're one and the same.

It is the process of realization only that somebody is realizing the Absolute Truth as imperson and somebody is realizing the Absolute Truth as all-pervading Paramātmā, Antaryāmī, and some persons are realizing the Absolute Truth as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. But they are advaya-jñāna, identical, the same thing. It is our power of perception only that makes the difference. The object is the same. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate

[SB 1.2.11]

They're sounded in different ways: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. But the object is the same.

So there is no quarrel between the impersonalist or personalist or the Paramātmā-ist. There is no question of quarreling. The example is present daily in our daily experience: Just like the sunlight, sun, sun globe, and the sun-god. Within the sun globe, there is sun-god. So which one is the chief? That we have to consider. The sun-god or the sun globe or the sunshine? Everything is light. Sunshine is also light, sun globe also light, and the original source of this light, the sun-god, is also light.

So sunshine is impersonal, sun globe is localized and the sun-god is personal. If you be satisfied that "I am in the sunshine," be satisfied. That is called sāyujya-mukti. The sunshine means combination of different molecular shining parts. Any scientist knows it that what is the sunshine. The sunshine appears to be a homogeneous thing, but actually, in minute analysis it will be found that there are innumerable shining sparks, molecular sparks only—they are combination.

[baby making noise] [aside:] They're disturbing. [speaks to some men in Hindi]

So those who are merging into the Supreme Absolute, the jñānīs... Their ultimate goal is to merge into the Absolute Truth in His impersonal feature. That's all right; you can do so. That is also not this material; that is also spiritual. That is not material. If you want to merge... Generally, people think that is the ultimate goal. But that is not the ultimate goal.

In the Īśopaniṣad you'll find that it is said that "Please wind up Your effulgence so that I can see the actual face." The same example, that the sunshine is light. There is no doubt about it. This is different from darkness. This material world is darkness. Tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ. The jyoti, the brahma-jyoti... It is recommended in the Vedas that you try to approach the jyoti; don't remain in this darkness of material world. That is the injunction of Vedas. And the whole process of emancipation is to..., how to approach that Brahman effulgence.

So those who are jñānīs, those who are trying to understand the Absolute Truth, jñānī...

catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ
[janāḥ] sukṛtino 'rjuna
ārto arthārthī jijñāsur
jñānī ca bharatarṣabha

[Bg. 7.16]

So jñānī, there are two kinds of jñānīs. One jñānī is trying to understand what is the Absolute Truth, and one jñānī is trying not only to understand the Absolute Truth, but merge into the existence of the Absolute. So according to Bhagavad-gītā, they are also sukṛtinaḥ.

Catur-vidhā bhajante mām. The beginning of bhajana, bhagavad-bhajana... If they are, if persons are pious, they can begin bhagavad-bhajana in four ways. Sukṛtinaḥ. Sukṛtinaḥ means whose background is pious activities. They can take to bhagavad-bhajana in four stages in life. Ārtaḥ... Ārtaḥ means those who are distressed; arthārthī, those who are poor, need of money; jijñāsuḥ, inquisitive; and jñānī.

So the ārtaḥ and arthārthī, they are lower than the jñānī and the jijñāsuḥ. Because sometimes we go to worship Bhagavān in the temple in distressed condition, but as soon as my distress is over, I forget. Or if I get some money, I forget. There is chance. Not that always we forget. But because māyā is very powerful, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī [Bg. 7.14], sometimes we forget. Very rich men, opulent, they don't care for what is God. Generally, we see at..., in Europe and America, they don't talk of anything about God. They are busy only how to acquire money and enjoy sense gratification.

So jñānī, those who are actually searching after the Absolute Truth, they are very much appreciated in the Bhagavad-gītā. And there are other four classes of men, they are called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Duṣkṛtina means miscreants. They're simply busy in sinful activities: "Any way, bring money; never mind what is the process." Or not that always they get money. But they aspire after material happiness by so many... Just like in Calcutta, the party, Naxalite, they are committing so many sinful activities thinking that by that way they will be happy and they will get the political supremacy. They are called duṣkṛtina.

Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Four class, the four classes of men who are pious, whose background is piety, they go to worship Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, there are four classes of men who are called duṣkṛtina, very sinful, simply miscreants, and mūḍha, rascals, no knowledge, completely in ignorance, almost like animals, mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, and narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind.

Because lowest of the mankind and highest of the mankind, what is the difference? The highest of the mankind means one who knows what is the value of life. And the lowest of the mankind is one who does not know the value of life. Na mam duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. And there are so-called learned scholars also, whose knowledge has been taken away by the influence of māyā. They're supposed to be very learned scholar, but they do not know that what is the aim of knowledge. They are called māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. And these classes of men are called āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.

Asuric bhāva means denying the existence of God, or defying the supremacy of God. That is āsuri bhāva. Just like example... We have got many examples in our śāstras—Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa, Rāvaṇa. They were very powerful materially, but their only fault was that they denied the supremacy of God. Therefore they are called asuras, rākṣasas. Āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. So four classes this way, four classes that way.

So jñānī... Jñānī is accepted... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that koṭi-karmī-madhye eka 'jñānī' śreṣṭha. There are karmīs, innumerable, millions and millions, all karmīs. Karmīs means they are working hard simply for sense gratification. And according to Bhagavad-gītā, they are called mūḍhas. These are the statement in the śāstras. So we have to explain the śāstras.

So karmīs are called mūḍhas because they are working so hard, but do not know what is the aim of their life. Simply going on working very hard. And in the modern education, in the modern civilization, people are simply taught to work very hard and gratify senses. That's all. "Get money and gratify your senses." That is the modern mode of civilization. But according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, an authority, Ṛṣabhadeva, He says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. He says that this human form of life is not meant for working very, very hard simply for sense gratification. That is the business of the hogs, viḍ-bhujām.

Viḍ-bhujām means the animal which eats stool. You have seen in the villages or sometimes in the cities, there are hogs. Whole day they are busy: "Where there is stool? Where there is stool?" And they become fatty also, very, by eating stool. And as soon as they become fatty... Not fatty; even the hogs in the cub stage, they're very much passionate, sense gratification. Perhaps you have seen. So to work very hard and get some means of sense gratification and live like hogs without any discrimination of eating and sleeping and mating, that is called hog life.

The hog has no discrimination. By nature, there are examples, one who has no discrimination in the matter of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Just like hog. They have no discrimination. Mother or sister or what is to be eaten, there is no discrimination. Anything they can eat, anything they can do, or any female they can mate, never mind. That is hog's life.

So actually, we are experiencing... Not only at the present moment; millions of years ago, when Ṛṣabhadeva instructed His sons... That is long, long ago. Ṛṣabhadeva was the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. Formerly this planet was known as Ilāvati-varṣa. After the emperor Mahārāja Bhārata, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa, this whole planet. Bhārata-varṣa means the whole planet. And gradually it is being diminished. Just like in your experience here the Bhārata-varṣa, the so-called Bhārata-varṣa is now diminished: Pakistan has gone away.

So millions of years ago the same thing was that: a class of person, they are just like hogs. It is not that a newly... Now, in this age, the hog persons are in great number, but there were... Just like Rāvaṇa. There was only one Rāvaṇa during Lord Rāmacandra's day. At the present moment there are many Rāvaṇas. That is the difference. But the Rāvaṇa is always there, Rāvaṇa-class men. Rāvaṇa-class men means they want to take away the goddess of fortune, Sītā, from the custody of Lord Rāmacandra. That is their business.

They do not know that wealth, riches, they are fortune, they are the property, they are enjoyable by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the enjoyer. But Rāvaṇa-class men, they think that "I am enjoyer. Get out Sītā from the custody of Rāmacandra. I shall enjoy." But the result is the Rāvaṇa-class of men becomes vanquished.

So this process of civilization at the modern times, Rāvaṇa-class, that "Take money which is the property of the Supreme Lord and enjoy," this is going on. "No God. Godless." "Defy God. I am God." "Who is God? I am so powerful." These things are also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, Sixteenth Chapter. They don't believe any creator. So these are called āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. The āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ civilization will not make you happy. The āsuri-bhāva... Because āsuri-bhāvam means everyone wants to enjoy. I want to enjoy, you want to enjoy. So there must be clash, there must be friction between you and me, because both of us, we are trying to enjoy.

But that is not our position. The enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa. Enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, as we sung this song, jaya rādhā-mādhava... Jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-bihārī. He is enjoying in Vṛndāvana. His only feature is... That is the real picture of God: simply enjoying. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. That is the real picture of God.

The Vṛndāvana-līlā of Kṛṣṇa is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana—the gopīs, the cowherd boys, Mahārāja Nanda, Yaśodā—everyone is simply anxious how to make Kṛṣṇa happy. They have no other business.

The inhabitants of Vṛndāvana has no other business than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa has no other business. Yaśodā-nandana brajajana-rañjana. He's acting as the little son of Yaśodā, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. Yaśodā-nandana brajajana-rañjana. And yāmuna-tīra-vana-cārī. And He's wandering in the forest of Vṛndāvana on the bank of the Yamunā. This is the actual picture of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

But Brahmā, Indra, big, big demigods, they are also bewildered. They are sometimes mistaken, that "How this cowherd boy can become the Supreme Personality of Godhead?" Just like some of us think like that. But those who are thinking like that, for them also, there is manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's supremacy. Brajajana-ballabha giri-vara-dhārī. Although He's engaged in pleasing the inhabitants of Vraja, but when there is need, He can lift up the Govardhana Hill—at the age of seven years. Or He can kill the Pūtanā at the age of three months. And so many demons used to visit daily. Kṛṣṇa used to go with the calves and cows, with His friends in the forest, and every day Kaṁsa used to send one kind of demon to kill them—Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Dhenukāsura, so many.

So although Kṛṣṇa is playing just like a cowherd boy, His supremacy as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is never absent there. That is God. God is not created by meditation. God is God. God is never manufactured. We should know this. God is God, and we living entities, we are living entities. That is the Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. Equality, when there is question of equality, the equality is that Kṛṣṇa, God, is nitya, eternal; similarly, we are also eternal. So equality in eternity.

Kṛṣṇa is conscious, cetana, and we are also conscious. That is equality: equality in quality. Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, therefore there is so many things equality. But that equality is just like the ocean and a drop of water of the ocean. If you analyze the ocean, you'll find the same chemical ingredients, and if you analyze the drop of ocean, you'll find the same chemical ingredients. That is equality. But you cannot think that the drop is equal to the ocean. That is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is vibhu. God is great, and we are anu, infinitesimal. Kṛṣṇa is infinite, we are infinitesimal.

So when there is question of merging into the existence of the Supreme, that means we remain in the effulgence, Brahman effulgence, as the minute particle of Brahman. There is dimension. That is mentioned in the śāstras: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9]: one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of hair. That minute particle, cetana. So there is... Anantāya kalpite. There are innumerable such particles. That is the formation of nirviśeṣa-brahman. That is nirākāra-brahman: Brahman, but there is no visible formation.

But there..., there is formation. Unless there is formation, how the material formation can take place? Just like you have got formation; therefore your shirt and coat has got a formation. You have got hands; therefore your shirt has hands, your coat has hands, according to your formation.

So this material body is called vāsāṁsi, garments, or dress, shirt and coat. The mind, intelligence and ego, that is shirt, subtle body; and this gross body, kṣitir-āp-tej-marud-van[?]. So there are two kinds of shirt and coat, and within that, dehino 'smin yathā dehe... [Bg. 2.13]. The minute particle, that is called dehi, who has formed this body.

So it is very easily understandable. Unless the original, the spiritual spark, has form, how this form can take place? This is shirt and coat. Just try to understand. If you have no form, then how the shirt and coat can take form? From argument. So therefore, living entity is not formless, neither Kṛṣṇa, or the supreme living entity, is formless. Both of them form, having form, but not this form. This is temporary form. The real form is spiritual form. Therefore nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13].

And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Second Chapter that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings who have assembled before us, they were existing in the past, they are existing now, at present, and they will continue to exist in the future." So they... From our present experience we can see that all the living entities are in form. Therefore, if they existed in the past, they existed in the past as forms, and they'll continue to exist in the future as forms. There is no question of formlessness. There is no question of form...

But because we cannot see the form in these material eyes... Just like there is a form in the body, but when that spirit is passing from this body, we cannot see. A medical man cannot see because he hasn't got the eyes to see. But it is not that a jīvātmā is formless. No. He hasn't got the eyes to see. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136].

Just like I am seeing you, you are seeing me. But what I am seeing? I am seeing your body, shirt and coat. You are seeing my shirt and coat. But when I pass away from this body or you pass away from this body, neither I can see you, neither you can see me. So because we cannot see, because we have no such knowledge, therefore we say sometimes that formless. Just like people say generally, "A point has no length, no breadth," because he has no measuring instrument how to see the length and breadth of the point. That is deficiency of knowledge. But anything has length and breadth. That is a fact.

So nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. This Vedic version, Upaniṣad, means that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person and we are also person. We are... What is our position? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. We are dependent person, and He is the maintaining person. So your position is always dependent. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is the version of Lord Caitanya. And Kṛṣṇa also says. All the śāstra says.

Here also, we are reading that,

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā
kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā
tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate

[Cc. Madhya 6.154]

So we are one of the energies of the Lord, marginal energy. Marginal energy means if I desire... Because I have got little independence... Because Kṛṣṇa is fully independent, sva-rāṭ. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu avijñaḥ sva-rāṭ. Kṛṣṇa is sva-rāṭ, means fully independent. But we are Kṛṣṇa's minute part and parcel; therefore we have got the independence quality, but not full independence.

We are controlled. Just like you claim to be independent, Indian nation. But that does not mean that you are fully independent, each of you. You are dependent on the government. These things are very easy to understand. Similarly, a living entity has got independence, but not full independence. He cannot do anything without the sanction of God. That is his dependence.

Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭa [Bg. 15.15]: "I am sitting there." The living entity and the Supreme Person as Paramātmā, both of them are sitting in this body. That is explained in the Upaniṣad as two birds are sitting in the same tree. One bird is eating, and one bird is witnessing. Anumantā upadraṣṭā. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumantā.

Because we have tried, we have taken the opportunity to live independently, so Kṛṣṇa, or the Paramātmā, is so kind that He has given... Just like a child is playing, and sometimes he is going to catch the fire, and the parents are obstructing. Obstructing. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, being the supreme father, He is always guiding. Although we are given the freedom to enjoy this material world, but without His sanction, you cannot enjoy, you cannot touch anything. But He is giving the facilities.

Because kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare [Prema-vivarta], we wanted to enjoy, to lord it over this material world, He has given us chance, "All right, enjoy. Enjoy to your best capacity." But He is witnessing. Witnessing means you want something, Kṛṣṇa is supplying. The material agent, Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti, or the material nature, He is supplying you ingredients. But Kṛṣṇa is sanctioning, and you are desiring.

You are desiring, "I want this." Kṛṣṇa says, "No, you will not be happy," but you insist: "No. I want this." "All right. You take this." Kṛṣṇa's material energy is there; He is supplying the ingredients. "All right. Take these ingredients. What do you want?" "I want a three-hundred-story skyscraper building." "All right. Take it. Take it." The ingredients... The sky... You cannot create the ingredients. The ingredients is kṣitir-ap-tej-marud-van[?]. You take earth, water, fire, air, and combine it and make a skyscraper building. But the ingredients does not belong to you. It is Kṛṣṇa's.

Kṣitir-āp-tej-marud-van[?]. Prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. Bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. "They are My property. That is Mine. Actually it is Mine." You cannot create water, you cannot create fire, you cannot create earth. It is God's property. You take it and satisfy your senses. That's all. That's your business. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmaṇī sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Prakṛti is supplying. But how prakṛti is supplying? How the material nature is supplying you ingredients? Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]: "Under My direction."

So what is the difficulty? And how can you become God? How you can become greater than God? This is all foolishness. You are completely under the control. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You are completely under the prakṛti, this material nature.

So our position is to be dependent on the supreme living force, God or Kṛṣṇa. That is our position. And He is supplying everything, as we want. Because God is not poor. He is our father. Just like rich father, there is no insufficiency. In a rich family, the father is very rich, and the sons, they can draw anything from the rich father. Similarly, we can draw anything from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme father. But our this so-called independence for sense gratification, will not make us happy. That is the position.

You can independently try to become Brahmā, what to speak of this prime minister or this king or... You can become Brahmā, Indra, Candra. You can become. They are also living entities in higher position. Just like your president, he is also an Indian, but in higher position. That's all. Your prime minister, he is also Indian. Similarly, all these demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuṇa, they're demigods, they are highly posted as servant of God.

But just like a foolish man thinks a constable in the street is the supreme powerful, without knowing the background of the constable's position, similarly, those who are foolish persons, they think demigods are the supreme. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ. Hṛta-jñānāḥ. Hṛta-jñānāḥ means lost of all intelligence.

So if we actually try to understand Kṛṣṇa from all points of view on the basis of Vedic literature, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam... [SB 1.3.28]. And Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Kiñcid. "Nobody. Nobody is greater than Me." How a foolish man can say that "I am greater than Kṛṣṇa"?

So we have to give up all these foolish ideas. We have to take the real fact as it is. And then we become Kṛṣṇa conscious and our life becomes successful. That is our propaganda.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]